Episode 96: John Forester & Vehicular Cycling

 Well There's Your Problem | Episode 96: John Forester & Vehicular Cycling

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LIAM: Yo, we're going.

LIAM: Rocz likes to do this thing where he just starts...

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: Usually he doesn't even tell us!

NOVA: No, he would just start recording...

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: All of the slurs that you were saying are still in there.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Uh oh.

LIAM: Oh.

LIAM: My slu--I don't say any slurs.

LIAM: I just say the word "slur".

NOVA: You say the word "slur".

NOVA: Well, the thing is... "Slur" is a slur.

JUSTIN: ...That would be...

JUSTIN: The s-word, yes.

LIAM: It's because...

LIAM: Listen, I have spent the last two days

LIAM: Fighting, uh, Barstool bros, and,

LIAM: uh... my, my average--

NOVA: Ooh.

NOVA: Love that for you(?)

LIAM: Yeah. Uh,

LIAM: They keep posting, like--

LIAM: Listen. I...

LIAM: I'm sometimes self-conscious about my weight and how I look in pictures,

LIAM: My profile picture--I look good as fuck, dude.

NOVA: (?)

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: I'd fuck me. I would fuck me.

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: Uh...

LIAM: And, uh... Yeah.

NOVA: Go follow Liam.

LIAM: Yeah. I'm, I'm sexy, man.

LIAM: Uh, it's not, it's not my fault.

JUSTIN: Um.

JUSTIN: Alright.

JUSTIN: With that, with that, uh,

JUSTIN: wonderful, uh, self-confident opening...

JASON: [laughs]

LIAM: Yeah, normally we don't have that.

JUSTIN: Yeah. shall we begin.

LIAM: Yeah, we can begin.

JUSTIN: Okay.

JUSTIN: Welcome to "Well There's Your Problem".

JUSTIN: It's a podcast about engineering disasters, with slides.

JUSTIN: I'm Justin Roczniak, I'm the person who's talking right now.

JUSTIN: My pronouns are "he" and "him".

JUSTIN: Okay go.

NOVA: I am [November Kelly], I'm the person who's talking now.

NOVA: My pronouns are "she" and "her". Yay Liam.

LIAM: Yay Liam. Deep in the process of fighting our fans as well.

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: Ooh.

LIAM: Uh, because y'all won't stop tagging...

NOVA: You're like that one statue of like, the guy fighting all the babies.

LIAM: Stog tagging us, stop tagging us (?) cheese collapse.

LIAM: Yes, that's me.

LIAM: Uh, I do like that someone tweeted the WTYP Fight a Fan competition.

LIAM: Uh, maybe we do a giveaway,

JASON: Good idea.

LIAM: where you get the chance to fight me.

LIAM: Uh, that's pretty tight.

LIAM: Hi, I'm Liam Anderson... [laughs]

LIAM: My pronouns are "he" and "him".

LIAM: And we have a guest!

JUSTIN: We have a guest.

JASON: Yes indeed. Hi, I'm Jason Slaughter from Not Just Bikes,

JASON: and my pronouns are "he"/"him", and in Dutch that's "hij" and "hem".

NOVA: Hmm.

LIAM: Ooh, okay, and are you record--no, you know what, I'm not even gonna make the joke.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: Nah, we have to, we have to avoid the normal slate of Dutch jokes today.

NOVA: That's right, that's right.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah, we'll have to put those on hold, there might be some Dutch listeners.

LIAM: Uh, you--

LIAM: Jason, you personally owe me $500 for the 2010 World Cup loss.

JASON: Alright. That makes sense.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: Yeah, uh, I accept Venmo or PayPal, so, when we're done recording,

JASON: Yep.

LIAM: I'll send that over. Thank you.

JASON: Yeah, sure, yeah.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: Now, what you see on the screen,

JUSTIN: is a man, in hi-vis,

JUSTIN: on a bicycle.

JUSTIN: Uh.

NOVA: ...On some sort of contraption.

JUSTIN: Yes, on a contraption known...

JUSTIN: as a bicycle.

JUSTIN: Um, you see also here...

NOVA: I mean... I'll bite.

NOVA: ...What is, a bicycle...

JASON: Wait until you hear about this.

JUSTIN: ...Well, it's a thing,

JUSTIN: that you... sit on, and there's wheels, and you pedal, and it goes.

NOVA: Oh, I don't like the sound of that. I don't think I'd enjoy that at all.

JUSTIN: Right.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: You should see Rocz'...

LIAM: Rocz has calves the size of cantaloupes.

JASON: [laughs]

LIAM: That dude, he could... could jump a wall.

JUSTIN: And then, and then you see behind them is a very large...

JUSTIN: Not actually very large by modern standards,

JUSTIN: actually, not large at all, pickup truck.

JUSTIN: And then also we see a "Speed Limit 45" sign here.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and I just noticed, there's an... additional person on a bicycle,

JUSTIN: on the sidewalk.

LIAM: On the... yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: Which, looking at that sidewalk,

LIAM: I, I don't know where I take my cha--I guess I just go on the street.

LIAM: Like, I, I know that I would wipe out,

LIAM: 'cause it looks like he's just pedaled past them--

LIAM: Is this gravel, here?

LIAM: Next to the sidewalk man, or behind the sidewalk...

JUSTIN: Looks like some gravel driveways, yeah.

LIAM: Yeah, I would, I would absolutely eat shit and break my mouth wide open.

JASON: Yeah. I, I would take a taxi.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: [laughs].

JUSTIN: Uh, what we're gonna, what we're gonna talk about today,

JUSTIN: is vehicular cycling, and John Forester, and the movement...

LIAM: Oooh.

JUSTIN: ...therein.

LIAM: Yeah, this is the, this is the Banned from NUMTOTs episode.

NOVA: Really, really, you titled that like a, like an 18th century treaties.

NOVA: "In which, Well There's Your Problem, uh, discusses...

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: "vehicular bicycling."

LIAM: It's right up there with, uh, Leviathan, honestly.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: Heh.

JUSTIN: Uh, but first,

JUSTIN: we have to do, The God Damn News.

♪[news jingle]♪

NOVA: Is it the cheese collapse?

NOVA: Did we do the cheese collapse like everyone was yelling at us?

[crosstalk]

LIAM: ...In the notes.

JUSTIN: No, no.

JASON: That doesn't look like a cheese collapse.

LIAM: It's in the notes.

JUSTIN: No, this is...

NOVA: ...be a really big cheese collapse.

LIAM: Oh my Go--it's in--IT'S IN THE NOTES!

NOVA: Notes???

JUSTIN: This is, uh, a fertilizer factory in Winston-Salem,

LIAM: Oh my God.

JUSTIN: North Carolina...

LIAM: Krispy Kreme, no! [laughs]

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: ...it is North Carolina, right.

LIAM: Yes, North Carolina. It's where Krispy Kreme is,

JUSTIN: Yeah. Uh...

LIAM: and where Wake Forest University is,

LIAM: because Wake Forest University moved out of Wake Forest,

LIAM: and moved to Winston-Salem, but kept the name.

JUSTIN: So, a fertilizer factory in Winston-Salem caught fire on Monday,

JUSTIN: it's now Friday when we're recording this, it's still burning,

JUSTIN: uh, it's the proper ammonium nitrate fertilizer factory,

JUSTIN: you know, the one that causes the explosions;

JUSTIN: this one did not blow up. I'm not quite sure why,

JUSTIN: I assume it's because they didn't attempt to fight the fire,

JUSTIN: they just let it burn out.

LIAM: (?)

NOVA: Uh, instead of letting it go into the--

NOVA: Yeah, instead of letting it go to the fuel oil factory next door.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs] ...Which is confusingly placed next to the orphanage.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly.

JUSTIN: They got an orphanage, they got a nunnery,

JUSTIN: right next door as well.

LIAM: ...I mean, they run the...

LIAM: the fuel car's right by CHOP in Philly.

JUSTIN: That's true, yeah.

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um, and then, so this is,

JUSTIN: this was, uh, they had about 500 tons of ammonium nitrate here,

JUSTIN: that would cause a pretty sizable explosion...

JUSTIN: if it had exploded.

JUSTIN: Uh, this is right...

JUSTIN: you know, you see some industrial buildings around here,

JUSTIN: but this is right in the middle of a residential neighborhood,

JASON: Mm, nice.

JUSTIN: something like a one-mile evacuation order,

JUSTIN: uh, that was lifted, I believe, this morning;

JUSTIN: it's now down to 1/8th of one mile.

JUSTIN: Uh, so, but it--

LIAM: That rounds, that rounds to "perfectly safe, go home."

JUSTIN: Yeah. So far, has not blown up, so I assume it's fine.

JUSTIN: Um...

JASON: ...Maybe it's very poor quality fertilizer,

JASON: like you would think quality fertilizer would explode.

[laughter]

LIAM: ...Gotta get that good ANFO,

JASON: Yeah, right.

LIAM: which you can't get since Oklahoma City.

JASON: This is very disappointing.

NOVA: This is like, a little...

NOVA: a little microcosm of the, like,

NOVA: "You have to go back to the office" thing,

NOVA: of this thing is still just smoldering.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: And it's like, yeaaaaaa, you can go back to your house, it's probably fine.

JUSTIN: Yeah, it's probably fine.

LIAM: Don't breathe in too deep, though.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: In other news.

♪[news jingle]♪

JUSTIN: The cheese aisle collapsed at the Acme on Oregon Avenue.

NOVA: Nooooooo...

LIAM: Yeah, uh...

JUSTIN: Um, yeah.

LIAM: The next person who tag us in this is, uh,

LIAM: is gonna get the ball.

JASON: I didn't hear about this. Tell me more.

NOVA: It was... Well, it was the day before...

LIAM: [distorted] SHHH--SHUT THE HELL UP!

[laughter]

NOVA: ...It was the day before Joe Biden went to visit this cheese aisle,

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: as part of his "Build Back Better" program.

NOVA: Um,

NOVA: ...and, right before he was able to do that.

LIAM: Uh, I believe you mean, [distorted] "Build Back Cheddar".

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: I...

NOVA: That's some...

NOVA: I was trying to do something with "brie", because of the "B",

JASON: Jesus Christ.

NOVA: and I couldn't, I couldn't get there.

NOVA: So yeah, no...

JASON: [sighs] Well, you did it, Liam. Good job.

NOVA: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: I, I've become the very thing I sought to destroy. Uh...

JUSTIN: It was a very, very gouda pun.

JASON: Cheese.

LIAM: Shut the hell up.

[laughter]

JASON: You know it's pronounced "khawda".

JUSTIN: ...Well...

LIAM: ...He said, underneath 30 layers of blackface.

[laughter]

NOVA: ...I'm gonna start mispronouncing things like these just for further annoyance.

NOVA: "Yeah, the guys' called Vincent van Gokhhh."

JASON: Oooh, wel--ac--

JASON: Ah, 'kay, I'm not gonna be triggered.

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

LIAM: Go lose a World Cup about it, and then send me $500 to make up for my losses.

JASON: [laughs].

NOVA: ...I want to be clear that I know is "von Huhh",

NOVA: I just, you know, don't respect, uh, Dutch as a language.

LIAM: No, yeah, that's fair.

JASON: You gotta work on your, uh, "khh".

NOVA: "Khh".

LIAM: Yeah, uh...

JUSTIN: "Khh".

LIAM: So this is funny.

LIAM: The people that originally posted this,

LIAM: the Philly Plain Dealer,

LIAM: actually DM'd us on Twitter,

LIAM: to say, "People keep tagging you in this post we made."

JASON: [laughs]

LIAM: ...And I actually sent back like, "Yeah," like,

LIAM: "here's, here's just the tags from today,"

LIAM: like, "we know."

LIAM and JUSTIN: [laugh]

LIAM: So, uh, shout out to the Philly Plain Dealer, I guess.

LIAM: Uh, I don't know their politics, don't get mad at me.

JUSTIN: Uh...

LIAM: But if they're in South Philly I assume they're terrible.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah, so, anyway, go... go down to Oregon Avenue, uh,

JUSTIN: and support Acme so they can rebuild, this, uh...

NOVA: Gawp.

NOVA: No, go and gawp.

NOVA: Push on, push on the...

LIAM: ...Don't go to Acme, dude, Acme sucks ass.

JUSTIN: Yeah. [laughs]

NOVA: Push on the caution tape they've... set up.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: ...It's always so expensive, they never have the shit you need, like,

LIAM: ...I fucking hate shopping at Acme.

LIAM: There's one right near my house.

LIAM: Uh, for those of you who don't know,

LIAM: I live in North Philly.

LIAM: And, uh..

LIAM: There's one right near my house,

LIAM: and it just--it fucking sucks all the time; but they do have beer,

LIAM: at that one at least.

JUSTIN: Uhh, it's good.

LIAM: Do they have beer at yours, Rocz?

JUSTIN: Uh... Yeah, they have beer, at the uh, the Acme on my side...

LIAM: Oh yeah, they still...

LIAM: Yeah, they inherited that liquor license.

JUSTIN: Exactly.

JUSTIN: ...Grandfathered in.

LIAM: Uh, actually, if you want a real good experience,

LIAM: uh, go to the Trader Joe's at 22nd and Market.

JUSTIN: No.

LIAM: Yes, go there.

JUSTIN: No.

LIAM: Go there.

LIAM: Uh, bring a sword.

LIAM: Uh, [laughs] you will need it.

JUSTIN: I was about to say, I mean, every time I see that place,

JUSTIN: there's like, a line that goes out and around the parking lot...

JUSTIN: and out the building and on the Market Street.

JUSTIN: And, I don't underst--you can't even shop there,

JUSTIN: 'cause if you miss some--

NOVA: No.

JUSTIN: The line goes through the entire store,

JUSTIN: so you only have one chance to pick stuff out of the aisle.

NOVA: It's...

NOVA: It's not for shopping,

NOVA: it's a place to have a tactical experience.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: Yeah, yeah, it's actually...

LIAM: You know what I learned the other day? Uh,

LIAM: PECO has two employee-only service lots,

LIAM: uh, inbetween--you know where the PECO building is,

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: and then the Trader Joe's, and how there's two service lots there?

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: Those are just PECO employee lots.

JUSTIN: Really?

LIAM: Like, you can just, park there and go to Trader Joe's...

LIAM: if you are PECO employee.

JUSTIN: Woow.

LIAM: Uh,

LIAM: so, I...

LIAM: don't know what I'm gonna do with this information,

LIAM: but I guess...

JASON: ...get (?) job (?) PECO.

LIAM: I'm not fucking getting a job at PECO.

LIAM: I... can't answer the phone right now, dude, I'm recording.

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: That was the guy from PECO, trying to call you.

NOVA: ...offer you a job, he's trying to headhunt you.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: I don't know, is there like, even a good--

JUSTIN: like, what's a good grocery store in Philly?

JUSTIN: That's the real question.

JUSTIN: I think you have to go to like, The Fresh Grocer on 56th...

JUSTIN: to get like, a good grocery store that's worth going to.

LIAM: What?

LIAM: The Aldi--

LIAM: No, the Aldi's fine, at, whatever, 43rd and Chestnut.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: Uh, welcome back to Philly Talk, where we're just talking about...

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: Yeah, it's a podcast...

NOVA: it's a podcast about supermarkets.

[crosstalk]

LIAM: ...actually, I like the Giant at 23rd and Arch.

JASON: I can tell you about my local Albert Heijn.

LIAM: ...I don't know what that is.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: I don't know what that is. [laughs]

NOVA: Some kind of freak Dutch supermarket.

JASON: There's also Jumbo, that's pronounced "yumbo".

JUSTIN: Yumbo?

NOVA: Yumbo. Yumbo. Um...

JUSTIN: I like that.

NOVA: Personally, personally, as... a Scot,

NOVA: I love to go to Big Tesco.

NOVA: Um...

JUSTIN: Ah, yes.

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: ...Some of my favorite shit to do.

JASON: Yeah. I had a nice Tesco Metro around the corner from where I lived in London, and uh,

JASON: that was where I did all my shopping. Exciting shit.

LIAM: Uh, the call was to let me know that I brought my...

LIAM: girlfriend sister's laptop back from the dead.

LIAM: Uh,

LIAM: don't contact me about tech.

LIAM: I'm not having a good day with it.

JUSTIN: Alright.

JUSTIN and NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: Uh...

JUSTIN: Uh...

LIAM: ...there's a Giant now on Delaware Ave, Rocz.

JUSTIN: Oh.

LIAM: You can just bike there.

JUSTIN: ...I'm not gonna bike to Delaware Ave.

LIAM: Why don't you--why don't you go to the Acme on Grays Ferry, dude? That's a good one.

JUSTIN: ...Well, I guess they fixed the bridge so I can bike over it now.

NOVA: News.

♪[news jingle]♪

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah, this has been Grocery Store Talk.

NOVA: I'm pulling the red cord on, on this.

[laughter]

NOVA: Listen... I'm a woman of some patience, but not infinite patience.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: Uh... so, bikes.

JASON: ...Oh, what? Oh, bikes.

JUSTIN: Okay.

LIAM: You can use a bike to get to the grocery store;

LIAM: now, if you look at the diagram I've drawn here... [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: Okay.

JASON: I have a video about that.

JUSTIN: ...What's everyone's experience here with bikes?

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: [snorts]

LIAM: Uh, me and you biking home from the bar, at 2AM,

LIAM: after my ex-girlfriend fell asleep and...

LIAM: let us sleep at her apartment.

LIAM: And then, uh,

LIAM: biking home in the rain,

LIAM: and chafing, and chafing so bad I threw up in the shower the next day,

JUSTIN: Oh, that one!

LIAM: because I was in so much pain?

NOVA: What!?

NOVA: Jesus, dude.

JASON: "The next day"?

LIAM: I'm fat.

JUSTIN: Mmhm.

NOVA: That's... a full-body chafe.

JASON: Jesus Christ.

JUSTIN: ...That was before, uh,

JUSTIN: Philly, uh, Philly Bike Share had any bikes.

LIAM: I was, was actually (?)

NOVA: (?) wind tunnel.

LIAM: I was actually throwing up 'cause I was violently hungover.

LIAM: And, uh...

NOVA: ...Same difference.

NOVA: ...but you're throwing up chafed, is the thing.

NOVA: My, my experience with bikes is, uh,

NOVA: my dad tried to teach me to ride one,

NOVA: and much like everything else in my life,

NOVA: it got too difficult and I just decided I didn't wanna do it anymore.

JUSTIN: Nice.

NOVA: So I've ridden a bike with training wheels on.

NOVA: I've never ridden a bike without training wheels on in my life.

JASON: Damn.

JASON: Alright.

NOVA: Please do not use this information to own me.

LIAM: Oh.

LIAM: Jason.

JASON and LIAM: [laugh]

JASON: Well, for me, I mean... it's Not Just Bikes, um.

LIAM: Hoo hoo... [laughs]

JUSTIN: He said the thing!

JASON: ...I get it, I did it, right, I got the... name of the channel in there.

JASON: Um...

JASON: For me, I don't know... I didn't ride bikes until I got...

JASON: desperate, because the streetcar in Toronto was so shit,

JASON: that I had to get to work some other way,

JASON: and I... went and bought a bicycle.

JASON: And that was when I was like, I don't know,

JASON: 28 or something. Um...

JASON: That was like, it. And then I didn't do it for a while.

JASON: Now I live in Amsterdam, so I ride it every single day.

JUSTIN: Aah.

JUSTIN: ...My experience, I guess, with bikes is, uh, you know...

JUSTIN: I use it for most of my trips, I would say, here in Philly.

JUSTIN: Unless it's like, raining or snowing.

JUSTIN: Or it's way too cold.

JUSTIN: Um...

JUSTIN: You know... a lot of it's on street biking.

JUSTIN: I had a bicycle commute that I did for a while,

JUSTIN: ...to a job in Media, Pennsylvania,

JUSTIN: And I did a good...

JUSTIN: 14 miles of vehicular cycling, each way.

JUSTIN: Um...

NOVA: 'Cause the thing is, about you, Justin, is that...

NOVA: you don't fear death, right.

NOVA: You're gonna go...

LIAM: No, he does.

JUSTIN: Oh, I have...

JUSTIN: ...I have certain amounts of fears of death;

JUSTIN: actually, I have significantly more fear of death...

JUSTIN: than I did back then, in college.

LIAM: Yep.

NOVA: You're still going..

NOVA: You're still going to like, Catholic Valhalla, right.

NOVA: Whereas me, right, I...

NOVA: I think I would cycle if I live in Amsterdam, right. I would learn.

NOVA: Because...

LIAM: You have to, right.

JASON: (?)

NOVA: ...Yeah, because I have to, and because I want to be a statuesque blonde woman...

NOVA: with like, one of those, like curvy bikes,

NOVA: and just like, riding that shit over cobblestones in high heels...

NOVA: like it's no big deal.

NOVA: I would do that shit.

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: ...If my city provided for that kind of aesthetics, I think I would do that.

NOVA: Instead, the kind of, uh, cycling that Glasgow provides for...

NOVA: is, "you are nudged out of your cycling lane into a brick wall by an HGV,

NOVA: "at like, 60 miles an hour."

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: That sounds about right.

JASON: That's exactly why I didn't cycle when I lived in London.

JASON: I did actually cycle, um, from the train station to work,

JASON: when I lived in Cam--when I worked in Cambridge.

JASON: So, that was another bit of cycling...

JASON: Cambridge is fine.

NOVA: Oh, Cambridge is all like, fucking "dreaming spires" ass.

JASON: Yes.

NOVA: Yeah.

JASON: Yeah.

JASON: I mean... It's pretty dodgy down... well, it was,

JASON: at the time, down by the station, I don't know how it is these days,

JASON: but once you get on the center of town, it's all...

JASON: you know, pedestriani--you still have to watch for those, those buses.

NOVA: No.

JASON: And the nerds, yes, the nerds.

JUSTIN: ...So, I guess this means I'm the,

JUSTIN: I'm the person with the most experience doing the horrible kind of cycling...

JUSTIN: we're gonna talk about today. [laughs]

JASON: I think that's probably true;

JASON: I mean, I did some in Toronto,

JASON: but I mostly stuck to like...

JASON: I only cycled in the areas where they made the protected bike path, and...

JASON: I didn't cycle, really, at all, um,

JASON: outside of that, as much as possible, anyway.

LIAM: Yeah, Rocz is familiar with... uh...

LIAM: ...I do love your stories when I come over,

LIAM: uh,

LIAM: and I tell you how I was almost assassinated...

LIAM: and you tell me how you were almost assassinated.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: Well, I'd say the worst part of that commute was like the last mile,

JUSTIN: on Providence Road.

LIAM: Oh yeah.

JUSTIN: 'Cause it was mostly all low-speed road,

JUSTIN: until that last mile, where you had...

JUSTIN: Providence Road is like, a two-lane road,

JUSTIN: you know, it's signed for 35 miles an hour and everyone does 70. Um...

JASON: That sounds about right.

JUSTIN: And you just... there's no shoulder and you're just sort of...

JUSTIN: crammed over there at the edge.

JUSTIN: You know, 'cause it's also dead straight, so it's like, I have no excuse to...

JUSTIN: not let people pass, um... [laughs]

LIAM: I am so happy you don't work there anymore, Jesus Christ.

JUSTIN: I was about to say, I only did it twice a week,

JUSTIN: I took the train over other days...

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: Yeah, I know, 'cause like, I drove you to the train.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: 'Cause I had to drive out to fucking King of Prussia--

LIAM: build the train to King of Prussia.

JUSTIN: I hear some difference in opinion on that, but that's outside of the, uh,

LIAM: (?) purview.

JUSTIN: ...yeah, outside the purview of this podcast.

NOVA: Beyond the scope of this podcast.

JUSTIN: Yeah...

JASON: Alright, back to grocery chat.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: So,

JUSTIN: uh, bicycles, they sorta showed up around the 1810s, uh,

JUSTIN: you got your early push bar bicycle, your dandy horse, right,

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: that's just, you know, it's a piece of wood with two wheels,

JASON: And it was like... they were rich...

LIAM: That sounds like a homophobic slur, I'm not gonna lie to you.

NOVA: "Oh, you dandy horse..."

JASON: It was, it's so funny to see those,

JASON: well, I guess drawings, from back then, 'cause there's these rich dudes,

JASON: uh, in this fancy dress,

JASON: going around on these, like...

JASON: ...bikes without pedals, like the kind of things that two-year olds,

JASON: uh, cycle on today, it just look so ridiculous.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: Um...

NOVA: This was the most dignified way of getting around at that point.

JASON: Oh, yes.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: ...By the 1860s, uh,

JUSTIN: the type of bicycle we now call a penny-farthing was developed,

NOVA: Yep.

JUSTIN: uh, that's the one with the big wheel and the small wheel--

NOVA: ...Still in use in Shoreditch.

JASON and LIAM: [laugh]

JUSTIN: I...

JUSTIN: Every once in a while, I see someone...

JUSTIN: there's like a, a group of a couple guys in the city...

JUSTIN: who ride penny-farthings,

JUSTIN: on the Schuylkill River Trail, and every time I see them,

JUSTIN: I'm like, "these chucklefucks."

[laughter]

JUSTIN: ...They're not--

LIAM: That's why Rocz carries around a speargun.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Um...

JUSTIN: ...you look at--there even like, modern penny-farthings, like,

JUSTIN: they have like, modern composite frames and crap like that. [laughs]

JASON: ...racing stripes?

JUSTIN: ...It's a racing penny-farthing.

LIAM: ...Penny-farthing Superleggera.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and then, um,

JUSTIN: and then, by the, uh, 1880s, you see sort of, the...

JUSTIN: first recognizable modern bicycles, with the two wheels that are equal size, you got the...

JUSTIN: the chain and the pedals, you know, you got all this crap.

NOVA: Yep.

NOVA: Whoops, we accidentally invented one of the most efficient methods of personal transportation...

NOVA: as a joke.

JUSTIN: One of the most efficient methods of locomotion of living beings, period.

JASON: It's pretty shocking, yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah. I mean,

JUSTIN: this is a problem with nature, is they couldn't figure out how wheels work.

JUSTIN: Evolution has just never done it.

LIAM: ..."Those dumb tigers".

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: ...Imagine you were in the jungle and you see the first wheeled tiger.

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: Doing a fucking mechanized advance towards you.

JASON: I think that would...

JASON: Yeah, we would not have evolved.

LIAM: "Oh my God... it's learned to flank!"

[laughter]

JASON: And this is the Rover here, this picture,

JASON: this is the one that was invented in Coventry, in the UK.

LIAM: Oooh.

JASON: Now a shitty place to cycle.

JUSTIN: Nice, uh, springs on the seats.

NOVA: I should say,

NOVA: I've walked two miles today,

NOVA: in the freezing cold,

NOVA: and I'm eating dinner 'cause it's my first chance to do so.

NOVA: I'm not intentionally freezing Jason out so that everything he says,

NOVA: is followed by a solid 5 seconds of dead silence.

[laughter]

LIAM: I am doing it on purpose.

JASON: Yeah, we knew that.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: ...In the 1890s, bicycles are very, very popular...

JUSTIN: this is sorta the first golden age of cycling, right.

JUSTIN: As they called it.

JUSTIN: Um, you know, 'cause everyone's using bikes to get around.

JUSTIN: Uh, you know, bicycles become popular; they're cheap,

JUSTIN: they're very easy to learn, so on and so forth,

JUSTIN: they were very popular with women, actually.

NOVA: Oh yeah, it's an early implement of feminism.

JUSTIN: It is an early implement of feminism,

JASON: Mmhm, absolutely.

JUSTIN: 'cause women could now...

JUSTIN: leave the house,

JUSTIN: uh, without the company of their husband,

JUSTIN: and travel long distances very easily.

JASON: And they had those step-through frames for the dress.

JUSTIN: Oh yeah.

NOVA: Yeah, yeah yeah, absolutely.

NOVA: It's like, one of the two terrors of the Victorian man,

NOVA: the bicycle and the postbox.

NOVA: Because, she can fucking...

NOVA: mail... She can write letters to anybody,

NOVA: including, like, other dudes,

NOVA: without you knowing about it,

NOVA: without her having to talk to anybody,

JASON: Can you imagine.

NOVA: ...She can go and cycle off to meet them and get fucked by them,

JUSTIN: Oh my God. [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

NOVA: whereas previously, previously, like, you know...

NOVA: the gigachad the next village over has to have like, a horse,

NOVA: and that's like, a limiting factor.

JUSTIN: [laughs] She's mailing a...

JUSTIN: derogatype of her ankle...

[laughter]

LIAM: I am so hard STOP

LIAM: ...Cannot wait to see you at the next county ball, and...

NOVA: "Derogatype"...

NOVA: A "derogatype" is like an insulting daguerreotype.

JUSTIN: "Daguerreotype", excuse me.

LIAM: ...Listen.

LIAM: I just want some telegraph joke, so.

JUSTIN: ...Now bicycle...

LIAM: (?)

JUSTIN: Bicycle usage, uh, sorta...

JUSTIN: started to taper off in the early part of the 20th century, though,

JUSTIN: and it's because of some of the stuff we did to streets, right.

LIAM: Ruined them. Yes.

JUSTIN: ...Yeah, fucked them up.

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: This is Dock Street, in Philadelphia, in 1906.

LIAM: Wow. You just said that like you were a native of here, and I'm so proud of you.

JUSTIN and NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Good for you.

JUSTIN: "Phildelphia".

NOVA: "Phildelphia".

LIAM: Good for you. Good for you. Good for you, Rocz.

JASON: That's like when I say "Torono".

NOVA: Mm.

LIAM: Yeah, the... second "t" is silent.

LIAM: Otherwise they... hurt you.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: You gotta watch CP24 and, uh, sorta squint to see what's happening up on the corner.

LIAM: Oh, yeah, dude, it's like disassociating!

JASON: [laughs]

LIAM: Yeah, it's great!

JASON: When it's up in the little, little TV in the bar and you're trying to... yeah.

JASON: Read the news, The God Damn News.

JUSTIN: Yeah, and there's too much text, you're overwhelmed, it's great.

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah, yeah. Fantastic.

JUSTIN: You sorta let it wash over you.

NOVA: You--

JASON: True Canadian...

NOVA: You know that shit has happened to me...

NOVA: when I start calling it "Glesgow", which I will never do.

LIAM: "Lesgow"?

NOVA: Yeah, like "Glasgow"--or, like...

JUSTIN: ...Rhymes with "Tesco".

NOVA and LIAM: Yeah.

NOVA: No, I... have a useful...

NOVA: instructional drop here of how not to say the name of my city,

NOVA: from the movie "The Thomas Crown Affair".

CLIP: "Not bad for a wee lad from Glasgee."

JASON: "Glasgee".

NOVA, LIAM, and JUSTIN: "Glasgee".

NOVA: "Glasgee".

JASON: "Lasge".

LIAM: That doesn't, that doesn't even feel real.

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: 'Cause it isn't!

LIAM: Ah, I don't even know where I am, man.

JUSTIN: Uh...

NOVA: Philadelphia, for your sins.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: So,

JUSTIN: Your pre-automobile street, you have, uh, you have, um,

JASON: Streets!

JUSTIN: you know, you've got horses and carts,

JUSTIN: you got a distinction between the "sidewalk"...

JUSTIN: and the "cartway", right.

JUSTIN: The cartway is the roadway,

JUSTIN: the sidewalk is the sidewalk, right.

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Uh, but... the cartway is sort of, you know,

JUSTIN: the carts go there,

JUSTIN: but you can also walk there.

JUSTIN: You might not want to, 'cause it's full of horse poop,

JUSTIN: but you can do that. Um...

NOVA: Yeah.

JASON: Yeah, this is the amazing thing, like,

NOVA: ...like--

NOVA: Mm.

JASON: Um, the fact that you could walk anywhere you wanted,

JASON: and the sidewalk was there,

JASON: so that you didn't have to step in horseshit.

JASON: It wasn't like, you had to walk in the sidewalk,

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: it was there for your convenience.

NOVA: Yeah, there's no like, marked crossings, right, but...

NOVA: in the later stages of this,

NOVA: you do get some, like, traffic signals, right.

NOVA: Like, fucking boards that you swing out that like,

NOVA: say "stop" and "go", right.

JUSTIN: I think the first, uh, documented, like,

JUSTIN: formal traffic control was on London Bridge,

JUSTIN: I think in, like, the 1600s.

JASON: Damn.

JUSTIN: Uh, before the fire. Um...

JUSTIN: ...they separated it into two-way traffic.

LIAM: Wow.

JASON: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Um, yeah.

JUSTIN: Uh, that was...

JUSTIN: Uh...

JUSTIN: ...I guess the first separation that was the sidewalk and the cartway,

JUSTIN: ancient Roman cities had that. Um,

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: You know, it's... been there for a long time.

JASON: That's because there was...

NOVA: And they did have marked crossings!

NOVA: 'Cause they had, like,

JASON: They did.

NOVA: stones that you could step over the track,

NOVA: so you wouldn't get, like,

NOVA: shit on your sandals while you were trying to cross the street.

JASON: Yeah, but they would--the street was literally an open sewer.

JUSTIN: Yes, that's also true. [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um, but then we... developed this thing called a "car",

JUSTIN: and cars go fast.

JUSTIN: Um, this is, I believe--

JASON: Mm.

NOVA: Boo.

JASON: I don't know what to think about those.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: Hmm.

JUSTIN: This is, I think, Michigan Avenue in Chicago, um...

JUSTIN: and...

JUSTIN: you know, you start doing lane markings,

JUSTIN: you start doing traffic control devices, like,

JUSTIN: traffic lights,

JUSTIN: you know...

JUSTIN: ...I like this "left turn only" lane here because they...

JUSTIN: they have you turn left before the island, (?)

[crosstalk]

JUSTIN: This arrow is very stylish.

JASON: ...right on front of incoming traffic...

NOVA: It's cute, until I(?)--who~ooop!

NOVA: Yeah, yeah yeah.

JASON: ...I do love these old streets though, like,

JASON: they don't have any lane markings,

JASON: you just kinda... still a free-for-all.

LIAM: No, if's (?) in South Philly.

LIAM: Now, today.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: So no one knows how illegal what you're doing is.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: but with, uh, with these, uh,

JUSTIN: the mass-produced automobile, of course, everyone's driving fast.

JUSTIN: Uh, that means the automotive industry invents the concept of "jaywalking",

JUSTIN: uh, they have to kick all the people off the street

JUSTIN: so people could drive the car faster,

JUSTIN: Um...

NOVA: Yeah, this is not a thing on the UK, so, like,

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: jaywalking is when you,

NOVA: you cross the street not at a marked crossing, right.

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: Um, and it's so funny when, um,

JASON: when I first moved to the UK, and was working in Cambridge,

JASON: I used to like, wait for the lights,

JASON: and, I remember, uh, one of my coworker said,

JASON: "you cross the street like a Canadian.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: "Politely."

LIAM: That feels like a slur.

JASON: Yeah, I know, right.

NOVA: ...You wait for like, the little green guy to show up, yeah, absolutely.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: (?), uh,

JUSTIN: ...I have only been yelled at for jaywalking once,

JUSTIN: it was in Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania.

JUSTIN: Um, and I was like, you expect me to walk all the way down,

JUSTIN: like, 500 feet that way and walk 500 feet back?

LIAM: ...Everyone jaywalks in Jim Thorpe anyway.

NOVA: Mm.

LIAM: ...It's a tourist town, fuck off.

JUSTIN: ...I couldn't figure out what the guy was yelling at me for,

JUSTIN: for like five minutes, until he... and then... "ooh, jaywalking,"

JUSTIN: I... forgot that was a thing.

LIAM: "Oh, not a real crime, got it, okay, see ya (?)."

[laughter]

JUSTIN: Yes. [laughs]

JASON: You know, this jaywalking thing,

JASON: ...it's an American thing, but it,

JASON: it kind of, has culturally come to Canada,

JASON: like, where I'm from, in Ontario, Canada,

JASON: jaywalking is not a law, like,

JASON: there's no law against jaywalking, but everybody thinks there is.

JASON: Um, and... you'll sometimes get drivers who will, like,

JASON: enforce it by,

JASON: leaning on their horn to teach you a lesson or something, but it's...

NOVA: Wasn't... what--

JASON: not illegal to cross the street anywhere you want in Ontario.

NOVA: Wasn't there a giant, like, billboard, like, warning you with the dangers of...

NOVA: um, of jaywalking?

LIAM: Oh, in Montreal, right?

JASON: Oh, yeah, that was in...

NOVA: That--is that in Montreal or...

JASON: in Quebec, yeah.

JUSTIN: That was a Montreal one? Yeah.

NOVA: Oh, okay.

JASON: So, apparently it is...

JASON: ...well, actually, I'm not sure if it's illegal in Quebec;

JASON: I know it is in like,

JASON: New Brunswick or some other lame province like that, but, um,

NOVA: [snorts]

JASON: but...

JUSTIN: Oh my God...

NOVA: ...One of the Irvings was like,

NOVA: "Nnno."

JUSTIN: "No, I need to...

JASON: "No, none of this."

JUSTIN: "I need to run a pipeline through here."

[laughter]

JUSTIN: ...So during this... period there's lots and lots of traffic accidents,

JUSTIN: most of them are fatal 'cause the cars have no safety devices whatsoever,

JUSTIN: um, they run down pedestrians, they run down cyclists, they run down,

JUSTIN: uh, mothers with baby carriages, they run down...

JUSTIN: nuns crossing the street, orphans, you know, everything.

LIAM: And orphans, yeah.

NOVA: Yeah, yeah.

[laughter]

LIAM: Want to (?) actually got that in there.

JUSTIN: And... they...

JUSTIN: bicycling sorta becomes less popular,

JUSTIN: err, during this era, 'cause it gets more difficult to do, um...

NOVA: It's more of a, like, leisure activity...

NOVA: and less of a, like, mode of transportation, right.

JASON: Yeah, 'cause you don't wanna die.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: And this is...

JUSTIN: ...there was some...

JUSTIN: before this era, there was some...

JUSTIN: consideration for separate bicycle infrastructure; one thing that's gonna be...

JUSTIN: very relevant to our story is...

JUSTIN: Britain, from about 1937 to 1940.

JUSTIN: There was a... provision,

JUSTIN: in the Ministry of Transport's...

JUSTIN: grant codes,

JUSTIN: that... to build an arterial road,

JUSTIN: local councils must include 9-foot cycleways on both sides of the road.

JASON: Damn.

JUSTIN: Right.

NOVA: Hmm.

NOVA: That's, that's... not a bad idea.

JUSTIN: ...It's a pretty good idea, yeah.

JASON: Mmhm.

JASON: I don't think they have that anymore.

NOVA: Mmh, noo, I'm not seeing a lot of 9-foot cycleways.

JUSTIN: Oh, no.

LIAM: No.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Well,

JUSTIN: a lot of them are still there,

JUSTIN: they're just overgrown, no one maintains them.

JUSTIN: Um...

JASON: Actually, like, Stevenage has a whole bunch of them.

JASON: Apparently. I don't know, I haven't been to Stevenage,

NOVA: Yeah, but then you have to go to Stevenage.

JASON: I've just been through the...

JASON: station.

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: On my way to Cambridge.

JUSTIN: They--

NOVA: Quite enough(?), I think.

JUSTIN: They built 280 miles of road with these, uh,

JUSTIN: 9-foot cycleways on both side,

JUSTIN: and some of them are very high-quality,

JUSTIN: they're done by people who, you know,

JUSTIN: considered...

JUSTIN: the implications of having...

JUSTIN: these cycleways, how do you treat intersections, stuff like that.

JUSTIN: Uh, there's not really any formal design guys, and...

JUSTIN: the others were like,

JUSTIN: the local council's like,

JUSTIN: "Aaalrighty, I will... pave something, whatever, I don't give a shit."

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um, and those were... really bad ones. Uh...

JASON: Yeah. I remember reading, um,

JASON: the stat, I think it was on the blog A View From the Cycle Path,

JASON: he's a British guy who lives in Netherlands now, um, and...

JASON: and he had some stats that said that...

JASON: there were more people cycling in the United Kingdom...

JASON: than the Netherlands until like, 1974 or something like that.

LIAM: Oh wow.

JUSTIN: ...That sounds about right.

NOVA: Huuh.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: ...I mean...

JUSTIN: a lot of those...

JUSTIN: old villages were very well set up for cycling, just (?)

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Um...

NOVA: We gotta, we gotta retvrn.

NOVA: Gotta be trads for this shit.

JASON: Absolutely.

JUSTIN: ...It's like how, uh,

JUSTIN: Philadelphia has the, uh...

JUSTIN: the highest mode share of cycling of any major US city,

JUSTIN: Despite having barely any cycling infrastructure.

LIAM: Blow me, New York.

JUSTIN: Yeah. [laughs]

JASON: Is that just 'cause, like, shit's close together there?

JUSTIN: Everything's close together, the streets are very narrow...

LIAM: We are (?) the Northeast, yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah. The streets are very narrow, um,

JASON: Yep.

JUSTIN: honestly, there's parts of the city where...

JUSTIN: you just shouldn't drive. You could, theoretically, but...

LIAM: Mmhm.

JUSTIN: like, uh...

JUSTIN: it's very...

JUSTIN: It's much easier to get most places with a bike.

JUSTIN: Especially like South Philly.

LIAM: Yeah.

NOVA: I wonder--

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: I wonder if Glasgow is like this before we ran

NOVA: an enormous motorway through the middle of it.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah, that's a bad idea.

JASON: Oh, but Glasgow has that nice, like,

JUSTIN: So--

JASON: circular, uh, subway,

JASON: that you've had, um,

JASON: since forever, in Aberdeen I think, but,

NOVA: Mmhm. Mmhm.

JASON: anything else?

NOVA: ...What we should do,

NOVA: is take the trains out,

NOVA: and you can just cycle through it.

NOVA: Just underground.

JUSTIN: ...Bad idea.

LIAM: ...you on the rails, hell yeah.

JUSTIN: Don't do that.

NOVA: Yeah.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: It'd be like cycling Hyperloop.

NOVA: ..."Cycleloop".

JUSTIN: ...Someone proposed that in London for abandoned underground tunnels.

JUSTIN: And the issue being there's not that many of those...

JUSTIN: and they don't go anywhere useful.

JUSTIN: They don't form a useful network. [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: You think if they went somewhere useful,

JASON: there'd be underground trains in them.

JUSTIN: Yeah, that's a good point.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: I could cycle...

JUSTIN: ...you know, 500 feet from Aldwych and back. Um... [laughs]

NOVA: Yeah, you can, you can do through like,

NOVA: an old continuity of government bunker, great.

JUSTIN: Mmhm.

JASON: [laughs]

LIAM: Hurray!

JUSTIN: ...That'd be pretty fun, though.

JASON: That would be fun.

JUSTIN: Um...

JUSTIN: So,

JUSTIN: surprisingly, who comes out against the cycleway plan,

JUSTIN: was the British Cyclists' Touring Club, right.

LIAM: What.

LIAM: Why?

JUSTIN: Uh, because they knew,

JUSTIN: these cycleways weren't great, they weren't gonna be very well-maintained, but...

JUSTIN: ...The main thing was,

JUSTIN: it ceded the main roadway to cars,

JUSTIN: they couldn't bike on the street anymore,

JUSTIN: they have to bike on the path.

NOVA: This is...

NOVA: This is still a particular, like, uh,

NOVA: thing of the British cyclist to this day,

NOVA: is like, you don't have to, like, negotiate your way around the traffic...

NOVA: because you are the traffic.

JUSTIN: Yes.

NOVA: And it's like, yeah.

JASON: Hmm.

NOVA: ...Fair enough, like, in principle,

NOVA: yeah, you have as much right to be there as a car.

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: But, if you try and cycle defensively, like you are a car,

NOVA: what actually happens is you are turned into fucking...

NOVA: chunky marinara.

LIAM: Right.

JUSTIN: Right.

JUSTIN: And the other thing is, this is, uh,

JUSTIN: this is a touring club, right,

JUSTIN: so this is sort of an enthusiast group,

JUSTIN: uh, guys... who love to bike fast,

JUSTIN: you know, they're, um...

NOVA: They're all on the penny-farthings, listening to chap hop.

JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly. They're going, they're going, uh...

JUSTIN: ...they're sort of...

JUSTIN: ...proto-Lycra guys, you know.

JUSTIN: Um...

JASON: The Lycra before Lycra then,

JASON: they like, Lycra before it was Lycra.

JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly.

LIAM: "Proto-Lycra"... [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: so--but they're not necessarily people who...

JUSTIN: you know, they just want a...

JUSTIN: relaxing bike ride to get where they're going, they're...

JUSTIN: mostly people who are going pretty fast,

JUSTIN: you know, they're cycling in like, big groups, they're doing, they're...

JUSTIN: almost racing, you know. But.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: Um.

JUSTIN: You know. So,

JUSTIN: this is... this is gonna be a theme.

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Um...

JUSTIN: now,

JUSTIN: so this, this sorta program dies off,

JUSTIN: during WW2,

JUSTIN: because Britain had more important things to do,

JUSTIN: like, um...

JUSTIN: almost joining, and then, uh, beating the Germans.

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

NOVA: Well, the...

NOVA: the fun thing is, that like,

NOVA: we had fuel rationing,

NOVA: until the 50s, I think.

NOVA: We had a blackout, that like,

NOVA: you couldn't have fucking lights in your cars and shit,

NOVA: except like... really heavily dimmed ones,

NOVA: and... and yet,

NOVA: and yet we fell in love with the car,

NOVA: and we stayed in love with the car,

NOVA: even--maybe because we associated bikes with the, like,

NOVA: hardship of wartime,

JUSTIN: Right.

NOVA: and so as a consequence,

NOVA: we all figured like, ah, once the war is over,

NOVA: you know, you live more Americanly,

NOVA: you get to drive your big car to, like,

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: you know, subdivision house.

JUSTIN: In the meantime,

JUSTIN: or not even in the meantime;

JUSTIN: over the next, like...

JASON: "In parallel..."

JUSTIN: "In parallel," yeah.

JUSTIN: Um... and probably Jason can speak on this better than I can.

JUSTIN: ...In the Netherlands they...

JUSTIN: did what everyone else did, which is...

JUSTIN: redesign streets to be for cars,

JUSTIN: and then there was this huge backlash, because...

JUSTIN: the cars kept killing kids,

JUSTIN: and, uh...

JASON: Yeah.

JASON: As was happening, like--

LIAM: Oh, imagine, imagine doing something about dead kids.

JASON: ...That's...

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: Not my America!

JASON: That's the big difference,

JASON: That's the big difference, yes.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: ...The thing was, like, this was happening...

JASON: all over the world...

JASON: you look at accidents statistics from the 70s...

JASON: just about anywhere, and it was like,

JASON: that's where everything peaked.

JASON: Um, and there was the oil crisis too, at the same time.

JASON: Um, and...

JASON: the Netherlands, they happen to turn that into action, to...

JASON: you know, start...

JASON: making their...

JASON: their streets less car-friendly--

JASON: [sighs]in North America, we got right turn on red.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: I forgot that was--that was...

NOVA: United States, only, like, civilization...

JASON: ...came out at the oil crisis, right?

JASON: We got right turn on red.

JUSTIN: Yeah, that was... that was a fuel economy thing, yeah.

JASON: Yeah, it was.

NOVA: ...Your only gift to civilization, right turn on red.

JASON: Fucking right turn on red, that's what we get.

JUSTIN: ...Thank you, Jeremy Clarkson.

JASON: [sighs]

LIAM: Yeah, I was gonna say...

JASON: Fuck off...

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: I've heard that joke before.

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: ...The thing is, was, when I've read this,

JASON: this history of this stuff, um,

JASON: you know... a lot of...

JASON: Well, a lot of people just don't know shit about this, but,

JASON: even people that read a bit about it, they think that...

JASON: you know, all these kids were getting killed,

JASON: there was the Stop de Kindermoord movement,

JASON: and suddenly everyone was like,

JASON: oh yeah, we shouldn't stop killing children--

JASON: or we should--

JASON: we should stop killing children, and then suddenly...

NOVA: We, we shouldn't, we shouldn't.

JUSTIN: ...Yeah, that's the school reopening movement right there.

JASON: Well, let's think about this.

[laughter]

NOVA: Yeah, we got Emily Oster on the pod.

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: The truth of the matter, though, is that, like,

JASON: when you look at the...

JASON: you know, the...

JASON: the city council's votes to, like, not run a...

JASON: highway straight through the center of Amsterdam,

JASON: ...these things lost by like, one or two votes.

JASON: It was not some unanimous thing,

JASON: it's not like everyone here was like, "oh,

JASON: "kids are being killed by cars and,

JASON: "cars are destroying people's houses so let's stop doing this,"

JASON: most people were still like,

JASON: "nah,

JASON: "yeah, okay, that sounds like a pretty good idea. It's alright,"

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: and then there was just barely enough people...

JASON: to stop it.

NOVA: There were like, fistfights and stuff about installing...

JASON: Oh, there were fistfights, there were riots, it was...

LIAM: Oh, Jesus.

JASON: It was crazy... there's video online of like,

JASON: people literally having fistfights over...

JASON: uh, some people here in De Pijp...

JASON: closing off one of the streets,

NOVA: "De Pijp"... [laughs]

JASON: which now is... [laughs]

LIAM: Oh, yeah... love to give her De Pijp.

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JASON: Yeah, it's literally "the pipe". Yes.

[laughter]

LIAM: Sure know how to name them(?), huh.

JASON: Anyway.

LIAM: Taking my romantic vacation to De Pijp.

LIAM: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

NOVA: Yeah, having my honeymoon in De Pijp.

LIAM: Yeah.

JASON: It's a nice neighborhood nowadays.

JASON: (?)

LIAM: Some...(?) Pound Town but I like something a little more exotic.

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: You like going to... De Pijp.

JUSTIN: There's...

NOVA: (?) yeah.

NOVA: De Pijp.

JUSTIN: ...It's a very silly country.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: Oh, it absolutely is a silly country.

JASON: You should hear them speak.

JUSTIN and NOVA: [laugh]

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: ...now,

JUSTIN: Jason has done several slides here, explaining...

JUSTIN: some of the theory of cycling,

JUSTIN: especially as applies in, like, places like the Netherlands,

JUSTIN: as opposed to...

JUSTIN: what we'll discuss later.

JUSTIN: Uh, so...

JUSTIN: let's go through those.

JASON: Yeah. You want me to take over here?

JUSTIN: Oh yeah, that's a good idea.

JASON: Alright.

NOVA: Yeah... you be Justin.

JASON: Let's do this.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: Congratulations, you've been--

JASON: Hi--

LIAM: Hello, new Rocz. Death to old Rocz.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: Congratulations, you've been promoted. [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: ...Welcome to, uh, Well There's Your Problem.

JASON: It's a podcast with slides.

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: So, here is the--[laughs]

JASON: This actually comes out of Portland, this first one.

JASON: Uh, this is the type of cyclist, um,

JASON: and uh,

JASON: this is the idea that there's basically 4 different types of cyclists.

JASON: There's this--

NOVA: INTP, EFTJ...

JASON: Yeah, exactly.

NOVA: Capricorn...

[laughter]

JASON: It's the Myers-Briggs of cycling.

LIAM: (?) active service...

[laughter]

JUSTIN: Mercury rising...

[laughter]

JASON: So we have our "strong and fearless",

JASON: the people who are willing to get on a bicycle, like,

JASON: they just love cycling, they just...

JASON: they'll bike no matter what.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: Justin.

JASON: And then you have your en--

NOVA: Young Justin.

JASON: ...That is Justin, young Justin.

LIAM: Young Rocz, uh, (?) dropping soon.

JASON: I, I don't know if--

JUSTIN: Then I go fling myself into a highway full of trucks.

JASON: ...Exactly, like. Fuck it. We're doing this.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: And then, there's the "enthused and confident";

JASON: I think this is probably what I was when I was younger. Um...

JASON: People willing to bicycle if some bicycle-specific

JASON: infrastructure is in place. Um,

JASON: I'm not that anymore.

JASON: I got kids.

JASON: So now I'm probably the "interested but concerned".

JASON: People willing to bicycle if high-quality

JASON: bicycle infrastructure is in place.

NOVA: Hey, that's me.

JASON: Yeah.

JASON: I think s--I think...

JASON: to be honest, I think that's most people.

JASON: And then, there's the "no way no how".

JASON: People unwilling to bicycle even if...

JASON: high-quality bicycle infrastructure is in place. Um...

JASON: No, I actually think that...

JASON: the real number of people that are "no way no how" is...

JASON: very very small,

JASON: but I can understand that

JASON: if you've only ever grown up in the US,

JASON: this is a perfectly reasonable position to take,

JUSTIN: Yes.

NOVA: Mm.

JASON: 'cause I think I would have had this position,

JASON: uh, when I was in my early 20s, I would've been like,

JASON: "there's no fucking way I'm getting on a bicycle, are you kidding me,

JASON: "I'm not twelve."

NOVA: "(?) gay?"

LIAM: It's a... one way to get to Death Town!

JASON: Yes.

NOVA: Yeah.

JASON: ...Yes, I grew up in a...

JASON: very car-infested city.

JASON: ...Called "London", actually.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: I gotta say, some of those, uh,

JUSTIN: cycle superhighways were pretty pathetic

JUSTIN: when they were first implemented. [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Eh, well, my hometown doesn't even have that.

JASON: So,

JASON: the idea here is that there's these different types of cyclists,

JASON: and there's only...

JASON: They're going to only cycle in certain conditions.

JASON: So, there was this...

JASON: thought, originally, that the "strong and fearless" was less than one percent,

JASON: these are some of the...

JASON: statistics that they got from...

JASON: interviewing actual people in,

JASON: you know, Berkeley, Portland, Edmonton.

JASON: And...

JASON: ...the 50 largest metros in the US.

JASON: So you can see here that the vast majority of people...

JASON: are in the "interested but concerned",

JASON: and I think that's probably realistic.

JASON: I think the "no way no how", again,

JASON: is probably a bit bigger, like, than it...

JASON: than it really is, if people were exposed to it more.

JASON: I think all of this kind of shifts as you're exposed to it more.

JASON: I think even more people become "strong and fearless"

JASON: as they get used to it.

JASON: But, um,

JASON: this is the idea.

JUSTIN: Yeah, I mean...

JASON: Let's move on.

JUSTIN: once all your friends start biking,

JUSTIN: you might start biking too. You know, it's a good time.

JASON: Exactly.

LIAM: Right, exactly, just exposing...

NOVA: Peer pressure, peer pressure.

JUSTIN: Yeah, peer pressure.

JASON: It's all about(?) peer pressure.

NOVA: (?) cycling dare.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: It's literally the only reason why anybody cycles,

JASON: is because of peer pressure.

JUSTIN: It's true.

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Yep.

JASON: So, this is...

JUSTIN: Um--

JASON: statistics, they're a bit ancient, from 2007, um,

JASON: that I pulled from A View From the Cycle Path, um,

JASON: but this is about cycling in the Netherlands.

JASON: And... the graph on the left here shows...

JASON: ...

JASON: (?) this is all in Dutch. [laughs]

NOVA: ...I love to "fietsritten".

JUSTIN: Yeah, the...

JUSTIN: "Antaal fietsritten per persoon..."

JUSTIN: ...I'm not... gonna try...

LIAM: [laughs]

NOVA: ...This offends me in two different ways,

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: one, as a speaker of English, and one as a speaker of German.

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: They're getting both of them wrong!

JASON: I know, right.

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: It's... [laughs]

NOVA: ...You think Dutch is annoying,

NOVA: and then you learn German and it's so much worse.

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: Yeah.

LIAM: Do you like: compound words?

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: German does more compound words than Dutch,

JASON: but I can see one of them there, there's what, like...

JASON: ..."fietsverplaatsingen naar motief"? Anyway.

LIAM: Man, fuck you too.

JASON: Yeah...

[laughter]

JASON: I think--oh, I have here in the notes,

JASON: "Liam's gonna give me shit about this being in Dutch."

LIAM: Yes. Hey.

JASON: There you go, there you go.

LIAM: I'm right on cue.

JASON: So, anyway.

JASON: The first graph here is showing how...

JASON: This is across the entire country of the Netherlands,

JASON: this is not just the big cities, this includes small towns,

JASON: rural areas, everything else,

JASON: and it shows, by age,

JASON: how often people ride, on average each day.

JASON: And so, you can see that...

JASON: pretty much everybody of all ages cycles here. Uh...

JASON: At least occasionally. So, you get into like,

JASON: the... younger kids, they cycle quite a lot,

JASON: and then as they get into working age...

JASON: you're down below about one cycle trip per... day,

JASON: and as you get older,

JASON: it goes up, and...

JASON: ...this is what I see here,

JASON: in the Netherlands, is that...

JASON: there's--everybody cycles here.

JASON: It's not just,

JASON: you know, some twenty-somethings,

JASON: clad in Lycra or fearlessly...

JASON: barreling town the street; it's literally something for everyone.

JASON: And the other pie chart here is interesting too, because...

JASON: what they found is that...

JASON: only 16%--now this is the entire, uh, country,

JASON: the... big cities are much higher than this, but,

JASON: only 16% of people here cycle to work.

JASON: And, uh, the bottom one there,

JASON: is... 18% to school. So,

JASON: what you find--

NOVA: ...22% spend their time cycling for something called "boodschappen".

JASON: Boodschappen, yeah, you know what, that was...

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: that's actually the topic of this podcast, grocery shopping.

JUSTIN and LIAM: [laugh]

NOVA: Huh.

LIAM: We did it, I am so (?) [laughs]

NOVA: ...I love to schappe my boods.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: [laughs]

JASON: So "winkelen" and "boodschappen",

JASON: is "shopping" and "grocery shopping",

JASON: um, and you can see it's 22%, but like...

JASON: and this is another thing that's really interesting...

JASON: about the Netherlands is because when you talk about cycling...

JASON: in other countries, everybody's focused on the... commute,

JASON: it's (?), getting people to cycle to work.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: There's lots of people here who,

JASON: uh, drive to work, take public transit, walk to work, um, and...

JASON: they still ride bicycles,

JASON: and I think that's what's interesting,

JASON: 'cause if you look at this,

JASON: from like, the, like,

JASON: mode share point-of-view that they talk about in the US,

JASON: only 16% of people ride a bike to work,

JASON: so that would be the bicycle mode share, but--

JUSTIN: And... it's interesting 'cause this is like,

JUSTIN: uh, borne out in other forms of, like,

JUSTIN: uh, transportation engineering,

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: especially here in the United States, you have like,

JUSTIN: whole systems like commuter trains,

JUSTIN: are geared exclusively to the 9-to-5 work commute,

JUSTIN: and nothing else.

LIAM: Right, was...

JASON: Mm.

LIAM: Right, Rocz, what was it...

LIAM: that you struggle (?), was it VRE...

LIAM: Not VRE, that, like, only ran...

LIAM: like, u--

JUSTIN: Uh, Virginia Rail Express, yes,

JUSTIN: it ran trains in the morning into town,

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: it ran trains in the evening out of town.

LIAM: Ugh.

JUSTIN: Um, it was horrendously inefficient because...

JUSTIN: in order to do 6 trips in the morning,

JUSTIN: they needed 5 train sets,

JASON: Yep.

JUSTIN: um, with 5 crews,

JUSTIN: and then they did 6 trips in the evening with that same...

JUSTIN: ...and there was a split shift in the middle...

JUSTIN: which must be miserable for the people working there. Um...

LIAM: That's always been sort of...

LIAM: sort of my thing with, uh, just like...

LIAM: SEPTA, you know, exclusive of the trolleys,

LIAM: uh, which run basically 24 hours, and I guess...

LIAM: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Used to run basically 24 hours... [laughs]

LIAM: Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right.

LIAM: I... still getting used to the new normal.

LIAM: Uh... I... always think about this with, like,

LIAM: even getting to fucking (?),

LIAM: which is what, 5 miles from us, if that,

LIAM: is, like, impossible.

LIAM: Just, based on,

LIAM: "oh, we stopped running the trains at 9:35."

JASON: Yeah, and it was the same thing with, um,

LIAM: And like--

JASON: with the GO train in Toronto, when I lived there,

JASON: many years ago,

JASON: um, it's... better now, although there's still

JASON: some lines that run exactly like what Rocz was talking about,

JASON: you know, there's 4 trains that come in to downtown,

JASON: then they sit there, on the most expensive land in the country,

LIAM: Mmhm.

JASON: uh, for the day, and then the 4 trains go back to the suburbs. Um, but--

NOVA: You could certainly do this with, like,

NOVA: commuter suburbs in London; where I grew up, in Southeast London,

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: ...the only borough of London with no tube stations,

NOVA: and so, like, if you wanted to do,

NOVA: anything in the city that wasn't "work",

NOVA: uh, you know... get a fucking night bus back.

LIAM: Exactly, like--

NOVA: Um, you know, take your life in your hands,

NOVA: beca--if you... wanna take the train back home,

NOVA: then you better be ready to like,

NOVA: leave whatever you're doing at 9PM.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: Yeah, that's something that really pisses me off, is like,

LIAM: I used to work in King of Prussia,

LIAM: for those of you who are not familiar, it's...

LIAM: 12 miles outside of Philadelphia,

LIAM: and I had to take...

LIAM: 3 incredibly shitty buses on...

LIAM: 76, and my commute was what, like an hour and 15 minutes or something.

LIAM: and it was shit--and then like, getting home,

LIAM: they just stop running the buses, basically.

LIAM: So they were on 45 minute or an hour...

LIAM: headways, and it was just like,

LIAM: okay, I can only take a--

LIAM: I can only take a car, this fucking sucks.

LIAM: Like, I don't wanna do that.

JUSTIN: The last VRE train out of Washington D.C. Union Station was at 6:50.

LIAM: [groans]

JASON: That's absurd. That's ridiculous.

JUSTIN: ...I'm not hanging out with my friends at the, uh,

JUSTIN: 9:30 club, I can tell you that much.

JUSTIN and LIAM: [laughs]

NOVA: Getting fired for leaving work too early.

JUSTIN: Yeah. [laughs]

JASON: Yeah... I used to do the reverse commute from London--

JASON: this is London, UK, not London, Ontario, Canada, um,

JASON: to Cambridge,

JASON: which is Cambridge, UK, not Cambridge, Ontario, Canada,

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: um, and I used to go the reverse commute,

JASON: but I could still get a train back at, you know,

JASON: uh, 12:30AM.

JASON: Um, now, that was the...

JASON: milk run that went to like,

JASON: Hatfield and Stevenage and everything, and had every single...

JASON: drunken kid that would go to Cambridge

JASON: 'cause it was more exciting than where they live,

JASON: but...

JASON: You could do it! Um, and,

JASON: you know, at le--

JASON: Anyway.

JASON: What I find with this cycling discussion that's so frustrating

JASON: is that if you look at this,

JASON: there's so many...

JASON: types of trip that people,

JASON: uh, do on bicycles in the Netherlands,

JASON: and it's not just about work, like,

JASON: there's lots of people here,

JASON: lots of people,

JASON: who will drive to work,

JASON: but they will still go visit their friends by bicycle,

JASON: they will do their grocery shopping by bicycle,

JASON: they will do everything else by bicycle,

JASON: it's just the work trip,

JASON: or, you know, if they go on vacation outside of the Netherlands,

JASON: that they'll drive.

JASON: And--

LIAM: And, and--Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

JASON: No, it's alright, I was just gonna say,

JASON: and that's really lost in the discussion

JASON: whenever it happens anywhere else.

LIAM: That's a really good point too, because like,

LIAM: now, and I understand that...

LIAM: you know,

LIAM: I'm talking about a specific set of jobs, but like, with the...

LIAM: professional class moving...

LIAM: to, you know, work from home, possibly forever, or at least hybrid,

LIAM: like, that...

LIAM: I feel like we have to sort of de-emphasize that, to a point?

JASON: Yeah.

LIAM: 'Cause like, you're right, like,

LIAM: people do other shit,

LIAM: not just...

LIAM: going to work.

JASON: Well, I was just working on a...

JASON: on video, and I actually mentioned this

JASON: in my Houston video too, that...

JASON: there's this national travel survey in the United States

JASON: where they looked at all car trips.

JASON: And, the average commute, I think it was 16 miles, in the United States.

JASON: But, something ridiculous, like 45%

JASON: of all car trips in the United States...

JASON: are 4 miles or less,

LIAM: Yeah.

JASON: or 3, 3 miles or less,

JASON: which is ridiculous, that's like 5 kilometers.

JASON: And that's 45% of all trips,

JASON: and that's in the US, where the cities are designed for driving.

JASON: And the trips are still that short.

JASON: It's ridiculous.

JUSTIN: It's bizarre.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: But, the thing is, like, you look at it,

JASON: and it's the same thing in...

JASON: you know, in my hometown,

JASON: uh, London, Ontario,

JASON: which on my channel I usually call "Fake London", so...

LIAM: "Fake London"...

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: so that it's clear...

JASON: which one I'm talking about,

JASON: 'cause I have lived in both,

JASON: um, but in Fake London, like,

JASON: there's so many trips

JASON: that I would take if...

JASON: you know, they may only be 1 or 2 kilometers, but

JASON: walking there sucks, and cycling there is a deathwish.

JASON: So, of course you're gonna drive.

JASON: But it's stupid.

LIAM: That's exactly my experience with getting to Rocz. So,

LIAM: Rocz and I live on opposite sides of Philadelphia now,

LIAM: and like,

LIAM: getting there on public transit would be...

LIAM: ...it's not that long of a drive,

LIAM: but it's very long on public transit,

LIAM: 'cause it just don't happen to be in a transit quarter,

LIAM: and that fucking sucks.

JASON: Right.

LIAM: 'Cause like, I wanna... get drunk with my pal, but I can't.

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: And this is the thing I find in the Netherlands, is that, um...

JASON: ...The thing that's really remarkable about the cycling,

JASON: is that cycling infrastructure is literally everywhere.

JASON: Absolutely everywhere.

JASON: And... I'll get into a couple of it in the slides here, but...

JASON: You can do anywhere you want by a bicycle,

JASON: and there's lots of trips that

JASON: you won't do by bicycle because

JASON: public transit will be faster

JASON: ...faster to take the train, it might be faster to drive, whatever,

JASON: but there's just a ridiculous number of...

LIAM: But you could do it if you wanted to.

JASON: Yes. If there's any trip you want to, you can do it.

JASON: And so, if it's,

JASON: if it's like, 5 or 6 kilometers or less, then

JASON: I'm guaranteed going to cycle it because why wouldn't I.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Um.

JUSTIN: ...We should keep moving.

JASON: Yes, we should keep moving.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: So let's talk about right hooks.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: So,

JASON: this is one of these things where...

JASON: [sighs] we'll get into it with vehicular cycling,

JASON: but this is one of the things that people talk about

JASON: with vehicular cycling, is that...

JASON: your...

JASON: These bike lanes, they say, are dangerous because

JASON: as soon as you get to the intersection,

JASON: you're gonna get hit by a car.

JASON: Fine.

JASON: So, this is...

JASON: this is the recommendation of how to cycle...

JASON: the vehicular cycling way.

NOVA: Mm.

JASON: to avoid getting a right hook.

JASON: A "right hook" is...

NOVA: ...To be the traffic.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: Right, to be the traffic.

JASON: A "right hook" is what you see here on the "wrong" side here,

JASON: on the left,

JASON: uh, is that, this person is in the bike lane,

JASON: they're going straight through, and this driver...

JASON: cuts them off,

JASON: right.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: This is something that happens all the time.

JASON: So, the vehicular cycling recommendation is,

JASON: when there's a car there,

JASON: you should slow down, let the car go first,

JASON: you go to... the left of the car,

JASON: and you go around it, and this is how you avoid the right hook.

JASON: Now, admittedly, if the infrastructure sucks,

JASON: this is good advice. But,

JASON: again, this is, like,

JASON: is putting all of the emphasis here--

JASON: all of the responsibility on the person cycling. Like,

JASON: this driver is just,

JASON: "doing driver stuff",

JASON: and you gotta do something special to avoid it. Though...

NOVA: Hmm.

NOVA: Something special that makes you act like you're driving a car, too.

JASON: Yes.

JUSTIN: Yes.

LIAM: Right.

JASON: Except if you were in a car,

JASON: they wouldn't just smash into you,

JASON: if you're going forward, they would,

JASON: you know, yield. But, anyway.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: So, if you go to the next slide,

JASON: you see how this problem is solved in the Netherlands.

JASON: Now, this one is

JASON: a relatively new junction near where I live,

JASON: um, and this is a little bit...

JASON: bigger than they typically are,

JASON: because there was lots of room there.

JASON: But what you have here is a cycle path,

JASON: a "fietspad", if you will, that's about...

JASON: 2 or 3 meters wide,

JASON: and the road is on the left.

JASON: And, what you see here is, you're looking straight in,

JASON: and then the bicycle lane curves to the right...

JASON: at the junction, so there's a junction there...

JASON: right after that... that big post.

JASON: And the reason it does that

JASON: is because if somebody is turning right

JASON: into that...

JASON: into that, uh, street,

JASON: they can turn and have their car stop there,

JASON: out of the way of traffic,

JASON: and they can clearly see anybody cycling.

JASON: So, this is... done for the same reason,

JASON: to avoid the right hook.

JASON: But this is the right hook solved in infrastructure.

JASON: This is not something that you need instructions on how to do,

JASON: you know, nobody needs to be taught how to deal with this,

JASON: you don't have to go through classes,

JASON: ...and anybody can do it,

JASON: whether they're 80-years old or whether they're 6-years old.

JASON: They can figure this out, right.

JASON: And, the other thing here to note,

JASON: is that the cycle path continues,

JASON: it doesn't drop down to the level of the road,

JASON: this is what...

JASON: called a continuous sidewalk or continuous bike path,

JASON: the cars go up. So,

JASON: in order to turn right here,

JASON: you have to go up a little speed bump to the...

JASON: height of the sidewalk,

JASON: and you have to do a very tight turn,

JASON: so you have to go quite slowly,

JASON: and then you very--have a very clear view

JASON: of anybody who's coming on a bicycle.

JASON: And this is, right here, is the example

JASON: of how to solve the right hook through infrastructure,

JASON: instead of trying to teach everybody

JASON: who will ever ride a bicycle some special thing you have to do.

NOVA: Mm. Yeah.

NOVA: ...You do stuff that like, requires people

NOVA: to not think about it.

JASON: Yes. It's...

NOVA: ...I fucked that up, that...

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: does not require people to think about it,

NOVA: not that, like,

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: fucking empties your brain,

NOVA: and you just like,

NOVA: "You must achieve a zen state," yeah.

JUSTIN: You know, the hierarchy of safety controls,

JUSTIN: eliminate the, uh,

JUSTIN: eliminate the problem, first.

JASON: Exactly.

JASON: Exactly, and this is--

NOVA: Yeah... become like water, um,

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: and then merge into the bike lane...

[laughter]

JASON: And this is what they call, uh,

JASON: I don't remember the Dutch for it,

JASON: but it's basically like, self-explaining infrastructure, like,

JASON: nobody needs to teach you how to do.

NOVA: It's probably like, [exaggerated accent] "self-explaining infrastructure".

JASON: Yeah, well, it is "infrastuctuur", but, uh...

NOVA: See, see, how fucking...

[laughter]

NOVA: ...I have your number, the Netherlands.

JASON: So, anyway, you can move to the next slide--that,

JASON: that's an example where there was awful lot of space

JUSTIN: Mm.

JASON: to do it properly. This is from a video, um,

JASON: by BicycleDutch, who... anybody who's interested in this

JASON: should go check out the BicycleDutch YouTube channel.

JASON: Uh, this is called,

JASON: junction design the...

JASON: the cycle-friendly way, or something like this, it's a...

JASON: it's a video he's had for like, 10 years;

JASON: this is an amazing video, 'cause he steps through

JASON: exactly how to turn a US infrastructure...

JASON: uh, intersection, into...

JASON: a Dutch-style intersection. So...

JASON: the top here, is what they do in the US, and Canada,

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: all the time.

JASON: So, the bicycle lane is coming in there from...

JASON: from the right, then you have this...

JASON: like, green thing, with dotted lines,

JASON: where the cars can cross through,

JASON: then you go straight through...

JASON: in-between lanes of traffic,

JASON: and then the cars can turn right without

JASON: right hooking you.

JASON: But, of course--

JUSTIN: Like a formalization of the vehicular cycling method,

JASON: Literally is.

JUSTIN: but it also confuses and infuriates everyone.

NOVA and LIAM: [laugh]

JUSTIN: My nemesis is, um,

JUSTIN: the intersection at South Street & 33rd.

JUSTIN: Because (?)

LIAM: Oh yeah.

JUSTIN: And like, every single time I'm like,

JUSTIN: "...I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die, I'm gonna be killed, I'm gonna die."

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah, these are brutal when there's a lot of car traffic,

JASON: because you're basically--you're forced to cross the car lane and...

JASON: hope that the people turning right will see you?

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: Mm.

JASON: And,

JASON: and then the bottom shows

JASON: the exact same,

JASON: like, profile, the same amount of space,

JASON: but done in a Dutch...

JASON: typical... Dutch cycling junction, and

JASON: basically every major junction in the Netherlands is like this,

JASON: like, this is not...

JASON: a strange thing, it's not only in a few big cities,

JASON: this is freakin' everywhere.

JASON: This is standard...

JASON: design code, all across the country,

JASON: and has been for decades.

JASON: So they're everywhere. So here,

JASON: the bicycle path continues,

JASON: it continues to be curb-protected the entire time.

JASON: The cyclists go through and they have this island,

JASON: this little traffic island that I think...

JASON: Rocz can circle,

JASON: He can John Madden it.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: There you go.

JASON: And, uh,

JASON: and... as a cyclist you can turn right here,

JASON: and you never have any interaction with cars at all;

JASON: if you do straight through, you do,

JASON: but the cars have to turn on such a steep angle,

JASON: that when they turn...

JASON: it is much easier to see anybody who's cycling.

JASON: So, you just get...

JASON: a better angle, uh,

JASON: of, uh,

JASON: intersection between the car lane and the bicycle lane.

JASON: And again, this is such a simple thing, right.

JASON: Like, it's just a different...

JASON: putting(?) curb and concrete down.

JASON: Really simple thing to do.

JASON: Um,

JASON: but, you know, the top is still being built

JASON: all over North America, like, as if nobody's heard of this

JASON: Dutch infrastructure that's been around for 30 years.

JUSTIN: They actually just repaved

JUSTIN: the one at South Street & 33rd,

JUSTIN: and the main difference is that they removed the green paint.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: That helps.

LIAM: Why?

JASON: That's good.

LIAM: Dude, people from Penn cycled like,

JASON: Oh my God.

LIAM: like, if, even, even...

LIAM: 'cause I think, part of this is also, uh, at least partial--

LIAM: the, the...

LIAM: "Oh, poor people don't cycle" bullshit nonsense.

JUSTIN: Yes.

LIAM: But like, a ton of people cycle...

LIAM: in and out of that specific area

LIAM: 'cause that's where the hospital

LIAM: and all the rich doctors are,

LIAM: and they cross the bridge,

LIAM: and they want them to die too now, apparently.

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Yes.

LIAM: Uh, and I know we say "Penn delenda est",

LIAM: uh, mockingly, but, uh, I would like the doctors to live?

JASON: Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: I can recommend that.

JASON: So, um,

JASON: ...this bottom thing...

JASON: the one thing you'll see sometimes in North America,

JASON: these protected intersections

JASON: are starting to pop up in various places, um,

JASON: in the US and in Canada, uh,

JASON: however, they're almost like,

JASON: cargo cult infrastructure--they kind of look like this,

JASON: but they don't act like this.

JASON: And there's actually a lot of details...

JASON: that's not worth getting into here,

JASON: about where the stop line is, and...

JASON: the signals timings, so like,

JASON: there'll be bicycle lights that go...

JASON: green first for cyclists,

JASON: so that they get ahead of cars,

JASON: and there's, there's all these, these details.

JASON: There's actually a really good website

JASON: called protectedintersection.com,

JASON: that a guy in the US has put together,

JASON: about how to do this properly,

JASON: and he's got every little detail

JASON: that should be done in order to build this properly, but.

JASON: Anyway.

JASON: There are a bunch of details,

JASON: but this really is a simple, simple concept.

JASON: and it doesn't take up any more space

JASON: than a typical intersection does,

JASON: like, they put them here,

JASON: literally everywhere, even in strange shape intersections,

JASON: you'll see this, this... concrete island.

JASON: It's all over the place, and it just makes such a huge difference.

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Hmm.

JASON: And we can see this done wrong, in the next slide.

NOVA: Oh good!

JUSTIN: Yep.

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: (?)

LIAM: [laughs]

NOVA: I love...

NOVA: I love bike gore.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: This is terrible.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: So, this first picture...

JASON: on the left here, was taken by

JASON: an urban planner in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada,

JASON: which is where I went to university.

JASON: University of Waterloo.

JASON: Um...

JASON: this is Northfield Drive there for anybody...

JASON: interested in swinging by to see this horror show.

JASON: This is insane.

JASON: Like, this is a highway on-ramp,

JASON: and they've just done this

JASON: green strip of paint right through the center of it.

JASON: Um,

JUSTIN: Right.

JUSTIN: Of course.

JASON: and if you look far in the distance,

JASON: you can see that there's like,

JASON: a semi tractor trailer coming through here, like,

JASON: this is in--literally insane.

JASON: And...

NOVA: ...It's the same kind of, like,

NOVA: theoretical support is painting, like,

NOVA: a rainbow flag or Black Lives Matter on the streets...

LIAM: "We see you, we hear you, we're listening."

JASON: Yes...

NOVA: Yeah, yeah yeah.

JASON: We see you, we just don't give a fuck.

LIAM: Yeah, exactly.

NOVA: ...We're aware--

NOVA: it's like, this isn't cycling infrastructure,

NOVA: this is cycling awareness.

JASON: [groans]

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: You should, uh... you have access to cycling.

JUSTIN and NOVA: [laugh]

JASON: Well, this is... the, uh, this is the whole,

JASON: "you know, we built all these bike lanes,

JASON: "and nobody uses them,

JASON: "I guess we shouldn't be building bike lanes."

JUSTIN: Yeah... you sort of, uh,

JUSTIN: you like...

JUSTIN: you build it to check the box,

JUSTIN: you don't build it to work.

LIAM: Right.

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: "We did that,

LIAM: "stop fucking showing up to the planning meetings,"

LIAM: yes, exactly.

JUSTIN and JASON: [laugh]

JASON: So, this was put in place about three years ago,

JASON: and immediately, it was...

JASON: everybody who rides a bike was like,

JASON: "you've gotta be fucking kidding me."

JASON: And it was in the news, and it was a big deal, and...

JASON: this tweet went viral, and...

JASON: they've done absolutely nothing

JASON: about this in the last three years,

JASON: it's still exactly the same.

JASON: And stuff like this is still being built all the time.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: And the, the one on the right here is in Florida.

JASON: Um...

JASON: you know, Florida is the flattest state in the United States,

JASON: it has pretty good weather most of the time,

JASON: and nobody rides a bicycle there.

JASON: And it's entirely because of, well,

JASON: You're looking at it.

JUSTIN: This shit, yeah.

NOVA: Mm.

JASON: Yes, this shit. Exactly.

JUSTIN: Also, it's much more comfortable

JUSTIN: to bike in higher temperatures than it is to walk.

JUSTIN: Just 'cause you get the air on your face,

JASON: Yeah, exactly.

JUSTIN: so you can (?)

JUSTIN: you know, like, 95 degrees out in Florida, and 100% humidity,

JUSTIN: you at least got the air streaming on your face,

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: you feel a lot better.

JUSTIN: (?)

JASON: Or you can get an e-bike, and you can--

JASON: or you can just ride slower, and like,

JASON: enjoy the, the breeze...

JASON: Yeah, this is...

JASON: ...Every, every single time,

JASON: I get some jackass coming on my channel and saying,

JASON: "wah, the only reason they cycle in the Netherlands

JASON: "is because it's flat," I'm like,

JASON: Florida is just as flat,

JASON: as the Netherlands is.

JASON: Um,

JASON: or sometimes people will say,

JASON: because you have good weather there,

JASON: and they've obviously never been to the Netherlands

JASON: 'cause the weather is shit.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: Like, I thought the weather was bad

JASON: when I lived in the UK, it is...

JASON: absolute garbage here.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: ...And you got these sort of treatments,

JUSTIN: these sorts of treatments at like,

JUSTIN: especially exits, uh,

JUSTIN: completely ruin

JUSTIN: a cycling experience; like, I...

JUSTIN: There's a...

JUSTIN: a section like this,

JUSTIN: in Philly, at the University Avenue Bridge,

JUSTIN: and as a result, it's completely unusable for cyclists.

JUSTIN: No one can go there,

JASON: Right.

JUSTIN: Unless they have, you know,

JUSTIN: some kind of deathwish. Um...

JASON: Yeah, I mean, I think this--

NOVA: Nothing ruins a cycling experience like death.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: Yeah... I think that...

LIAM: Surprisingly, but.

JASON: we've, we've discovered the fifth type of cyclist.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: So... but I get people, also, when I talk about these stuff,

JASON: and... [sighs] I can't believe I've gotten myself

JASON: talking about these stuff, 'cause I hate talking about these stuff.

JASON: But apparently I've made myself a...

JASON: YouTube channel about it.

JASON: So let's talk about highways here, so...

JASON: ...I get people saying that,

JASON: "well, you know, we gotta have highways,

JASON: "how are we gonna get cyclists to go down the highway?"

JASON: And here is a...

JASON: highway junction on the left here, in Rotterdam,

JASON: which is pretty car-friendly city

JASON: as far as Dutch cities go,

JASON: because it was leveled...

JASON: in, um, World War II and then they said,

JASON: "let's build back like the Americans."

JASON: When you read back...

LIAM: Oh, you dumb idiots.

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JASON: When you read back from, like,

JASON: the 40s, 50s, and 60s in the Netherlands,

JASON: they, they just really wanted to do...

JASON: the American car thing.

JASON: They thought that was just the best shit around.

JASON: And there's so much stuff that was directly impacted

JASON: by what was happening in America--

JASON: they even brought American traffic planners over...

JASON: I made this video about this plan, Jokinen,

JASON: which was literally like,

JASON: let's just pave highways through every single city.

JASON: And, yeah.

NOVA: ...Dutch were planning to become the Joker.

JUSTIN and JASON: [laugh]

JASON: So, this here is a...

LIAM: Hate(?) the Earth.

JASON: huge highway junction, in Rotterdam.

JASON: And, if you look at that little green line,

JASON: that's they way the cyclists go through it.

JASON: So...

JASON: ...and you can see here on the right,

JASON: this is what it looks like from the highway.

JASON: The cyclists just stay at ground level.

JASON: ...Doesn't change up, doesn't go down,

JASON: you don't have to do any grade changes at all,

JASON: you just cycle...

JASON: the fastest and most direct route--

JASON: kind of,

JASON: I mean you kinda have to go around that one cloverleaf, but--

JASON: this is the way it is,

JASON: and then, all of the highways are built over it. So,

JASON: this is the way that you get people on bikes

JASON: through a highway interchange.

JASON: Not by putting them right next to the highway exit.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: You know... I'm gonna say this,

JUSTIN: I bet...

JUSTIN: I'm gonna hazard a guess...

JUSTIN: that probably this bike lane,

JUSTIN: this bikeway here has a higher throughput of people

JUSTIN: than the entire freeway interchange...

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: [laughs] That is entirely possible...

JASON: [laughs]

JASON: ...Yeah.

JASON: So, we can move on to, uh, the next one here, which...

JASON: this... takes a little bit of explaining. So,

JASON: you can see that...

JASON: the general Dutch method

JASON: of cycling is to keep cyclists separated from cars, like,

JASON: as separated as possible.

JASON: So we saw that they have separated bicycle pass,

JASON: they have protected intersections where they're separated,

JASON: they have a totally great separated crossings

JASON: at those highway interchanges,

JASON: and this is another way

JASON: that they separate car and bicycle traffic. So,

JASON: this is, um,

JASON: oh, this is a great Dutch word,

JASON: this is the Dutch concept of "ontvlecthten",

NOVA: Uh huh.

LIAM: [retches]

JASON: which kinda means like, "disentangling",

JASON: so,

JASON: the way they do the traffic engineering in Dutch cities is...

JASON: they have specific routes that people in cars are meant to take,

JASON: and then they have other routes

JASON: that people in bicycles are meant to take.

JASON: And they do this on purpose.

JASON: So, there are maps available...

JASON: um, online, that will show you, you know,

JASON: which way you should go on a bicycle,

JASON: which way you should go on a car,

JASON: but normally, you don't have to think about it much,

JASON: because the bicycle route is this...

JASON: is the quickest and most direct route.

JASON: So this one on the left,

JASON: starting from the bottom,

JASON: this is, like, a real bicycle ride I did once.

JASON: You go out, you turn left,

JASON: you go straight up,

JASON: you get to where you're going.

JASON: Um, you can't do this in a car.

JASON: Uh, you can't do this route in a car,

JASON: because there are several sections in here...

JASON: where they have what are called modal filters, where...

JASON: there is a "do not enter" sign,

JASON: or there's a curb,

JASON: or there's something that prevents you

NOVA: Bollards, yeah.

JASON: from going through--bollards, sure--

JASON: um, that prevents you from going through with an automobile. So,

JASON: the...

JASON: the cars are meant to take, uh,

JASON: a...

JASON: what's called a (?),

NOVA: [snorts]

JASON: um, and they will turn right...

LIAM: Goddammit, dude. [laughs]

JASON: Exactly, I know, there's a lot of Dutch here, alright.

JASON: It's.. it's a Dutch thing.

JASON: Deal with it.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: So...

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: If you're driving this same route in a car,

JASON: you have to turn right and go around.

JASON: And you can see that this route here, on the left,

JASON: is longer for the car than it is for the bicycle.

JASON: Um,

JASON: but this is the way that they keep car traffic

JASON: from going absolutely everywhere, 'cause

JASON: certainly, everywhere in Canada,

JASON: cars can basically go everywhere.

JASON: Like, every street can have a car down it,

JASON: and you can drive anywhere you want,

JASON: and when you're on a bicycle,

JASON: you have to take those same routes.

JASON: But here, the routes that a car will take

JASON: and the routes that a bike will take are totally different.

JASON: The one on the right is another example, so here,

JASON: is going from Amsterdam-Zuid, south,

JASON: to Amsterdam-Noord, north.

JASON: And,

JASON: on a bicycle, you take the direct route

JASON: through the center of the city,

JASON: you take a ferry,

JASON: and you get there...

JASON: in a much shorter distance than if you take a car,

JASON: now, a car would take the highway,

JASON: which is a better way to go on a car.

JASON: But again, that,

JASON: that blue route would not be possible in a car,

JASON: it would not be physically possible to do.

JASON: And that's on purpose.

JASON: And this is exactly one of these ways that...

JASON: by doing this, it means that when you're cycling,

JASON: not only are...

JASON: you have protected bicycle infrastructure, but even if you don't,

JASON: there are very few cars around.

JASON: Because the only cars you're going to run into

JASON: will be local traffic for those destinations, like,

JASON: there will be no through traffic at all,

JASON: so, not only are you usually separated from cars,

JASON: even when you're not, the traffic is so light,

JASON: that it's okay that you're not separated from cars.

JASON: And, this is the ultimate separation, that...

JASON: You're never going to be...

JASON: have a problem with a car, because

JASON: you hardly ever...

JASON: interact with cars at all, when you're on a bicycle.

JASON: I know, it's fucking mindblowing.

JUSTIN: I know...

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: ...It's just, uh, it's a more civilized way to do it.

NOVA: Yeah, it's--

LIAM: "Keep 'Em Separated" by The Offspring, just all the time.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: ...It's not subtle, either, it's like,

NOVA: less nudge theory and more like, fucking shove theory,

LIAM and JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: But I really appreciate it.

JASON: Yeah.

LIAM: Although, I think that probably is the only way to do it.

NOVA: Yeah, yeah yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: It is the only way to do it, because...

JASON: and I, I've talked about this in,

JASON: in previous videos that I've made:

JASON: the thing was, it didn't used to be like this,

JASON: and, like were shown in a few slides ago,

JASON: near the beginning,

JASON: that street was totally full of cars.

JASON: And of course it was,

JASON: because if you can drive,

JASON: why wouldn't you?

JASON: You might look out and say,

JASON: "aw jeez, it might rain on my way home,

JASON: "maybe I should just take the car."

JASON: Right.

JASON: But if you look at this and you think,

JASON: "[sighs] you know what?

JASON: "It's gonna be faster if I just bike, and it's easier to park,

JASON: "I'm just gonna bike it."

JASON: And that is exactly the thought process

JASON: that so many people make in the Netherlands,

JASON: because of stuff like this.

JASON: And it's all done on purpose.

JUSTIN: And...

JASON: Next slide, please.

JUSTIN: That's why,

JUSTIN: you know... in Netherlands,

JUSTIN: uh, bike's for everyone, right, you know,

JUSTIN: the, the men ride bikes, the women ride bikes,

JUSTIN: people of undetermined gender ride bikes,

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: kids ride bikes,

JUSTIN: rich people ride bikes, poor people ride bikes,

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: young and old people--

JASON: It is crazy when you see like,

JASON: like, 90-year olds riding bicycles.

JUSTIN: Thin people ride bikes, fat people ride bikes,

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: white people ride bikes, black people ride bikes,

JUSTIN: a lot more near Christmas. Um...

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Sorry.

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: Took me a second, dude, Jesus Christ.

JASON: I was just waiting for that joke.

JUSTIN: Yeah... [laughs]

JASON: I was literally just like, okay, we're gonna--

NOVA: ...You really, you really slipped that one in...

JASON: We're gonna get, like, (?)

[crosstalk]

NOVA: I know I'm tired, but like, God, that took me a minute.

LIAM: Yeah, same.

LIAM: And I don't even have the excuse of being tired,

LIAM: I'm just dumb, apparently.

NOVA and JASON: [laugh]

LIAM: Tragic.

JASON: ...I really can't believe it.

NOVA: It's a harmless Christmas tradition.

JUSTIN: Another fun one is...

JUSTIN: even disabled people can ride bikes over there 'cause...

JASON: Yeah, that's actually a really good point.

JUSTIN: you know, those...

JUSTIN: those specialized bikes are...

JUSTIN: They're expensive though, unfortunately. Um...

JASON: Yeah, they are, um, there's a lot of alternatives though, um,

JASON: the, you can get tricycles that are...

JASON: significantly cheaper,

JASON: you don't have to have a hand bike, um, but...

JASON: ...it is interesting; I see disabled people...

JASON: in the bicycle lanes, every single day, that I'm out.

JASON: Like every single day.

JASON: Um, there are lots of people who use these bicycle pass

JASON: for, uh, mobility scooters,

JASON: that's, like, super common as well,

JASON: they have--

LIAM: That's what would always scare the shit out of me

LIAM: in North Philly is that, like,

LIAM: we have a ton of people, like, around...

LIAM: around my neighborhood, where they're just...

LIAM: they are forced to ride the mobility scooters in the road,

LIAM: and people blow by them--

NOVA: What?! Jeez...

JASON: ...Insane, Jesus Christ.

LIAM: Yeah... absolutely, [Nova]. Yeah.

JUSTIN: Sidewalks are very bad here in Philly.

LIAM: It fucking suck--

LIAM: Yeah, 'cause... yeah,

LIAM: they just don't bother maintaining them,

LIAM: and they're like,

LIAM: wow, I can't believe that that person died, it's like,

LIAM: really? Can't fucking believe it?

JUSTIN: ...'Cause we have a system where

JUSTIN: the sidewalk is a responsibility of adjacent property owner.

JUSTIN: So, um,

LIAM: Right.

JUSTIN: you know, if you have unmaintained vacant lot,

JUSTIN: of which there are many in North Philly,

LIAM: Yeah.

JUSTIN: there's no sidewalk there (?)...

LIAM: As it turns out, yes.

JUSTIN: mobility chair doesn't work...

JUSTIN: so well on, you know, just dirt.

JUSTIN: Um... [laughs]

JASON: That is the absolute worst,

LIAM: It's so fucking (?), it's so fucking cruel.

JASON: when the adjacent property owners

JASON: are responsible for the sidewalk;

JUSTIN: It's terrible.

JASON: it is cruel, it's ridiculous.

JASON: Like, how is that not the responsibility

JASON: of the city, I just, fuck, I don't know.

JUSTIN: ...That is an interesting thing about bike lanes,

JUSTIN: is that, pretty much every...

JUSTIN: everywhere they do also, sorta,

JUSTIN: double as infrastructure for...

JUSTIN: people who use mobility chairs, or things like that.

JASON: Yeah.

JASON: They do.

JUSTIN: Now, um,

JUSTIN: ...another group of people who ride bikes are Lycra guys.

NOVA: Mmhm.

JUSTIN: Uh, now...

JUSTIN: now, for a while,

JUSTIN: at least here in the States,

JUSTIN: they had a monopoly on it.

JASON: You know, they actually have a different word

JASON: in Dutch for like,

JASON: a, a racing cyclist... and a regular cyclist,

JUSTIN: Really?

JASON: They don't use the word--

JASON: Yeah, so, the,

JASON: like, a regular person--

LIAM: They use the phrase "Lycra guy"?

[laughter]

JASON: Believe it or not, they don't say "mamils", um... [laughs]

JASON: "Middle-aged men in Lycra", for anybody new to that... term, um...

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: The, uh... [laughs]

JASON: The,

JASON: the term for a general cyclist is a "fietser", um,

JASON: and that's, like,

JASON: just somebody on a bicycle.

JASON: And the, the term for somebody who's like,

JASON: racing cyclist is called a "wielrenner",

JASON: which literally means "wheel runner",

NOVA: Mm.

JASON: um, and,

JASON: and there's this very clear distinction between them,

JASON: and actually there's sometimes...

JASON: like, the way that people hate cyclists in the US,

JASON: some people have issues with "wielrenners",

JASON: they say they ride too fast and all these kind of thing, but, uh,

JASON: you know, there's still has to be that prejudice.

JASON: Um...

JASON: But it's,

JASON: it's interesting that they have those two different words for it.

JASON: Because it's very clear which ones you're talking about.

JASON: You build the infrastructure for the "fietsers".

JUSTIN: And, and that's where we're gonna go.

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Right now, to,

JUSTIN: Davis, California in 1964.

LIAM: Woow.

NOVA: Fantastic place, and time.

LIAM: ...fietsers.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: Look at that fietser.

JUSTIN: That is, that's a fietser right there.

JASON: ...If I've ever seen one.

JUSTIN: So,

JUSTIN: University of California, Davis had a really big campus, right--

JUSTIN: they still have a really big campus.

JUSTIN: Um, it's California, so the weather's nice all year round,

JUSTIN: except when it's on fire, but.

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Davis is far enough away from the fire so it's fine.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: you know, and...

JUSTIN: the best way to get around on campus was on a bike, right,

JUSTIN: even in 1966 this was obvious,

JUSTIN: but if you lived off-campus,

JUSTIN: uh,

JUSTIN: it was difficult to bike off-campus,

JUSTIN: there was more traffic in the city of Davis,

JUSTIN: um, there was... you know...

JUSTIN: ...it was,

JUSTIN: it started to become difficult.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: but bicycle traffic itself was also a problem,

JUSTIN: during periods between classes at UC Davis,

JUSTIN: students would all almost simultaneously get on their bikes,

JUSTIN: and bike to another location on campus.

JUSTIN: And that meant intersections...

JUSTIN: ...in the, uh, campus and the surrounding town,

JUSTIN: could be blocked with as many as 200 bicycles a minute.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: Jesus.

[crosstalk]

NOVA: I mean, it rules, but.

JUSTIN: That's...

JUSTIN: ...you couldn't do that with cars. Um... [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: Nah(?)

JASON: No.

JUSTIN: Um, also in the 60s, you started to get...

JUSTIN: the first, uh, like, really

JUSTIN: high-quality mass market bikes,

JUSTIN: right, we're talking, we're going to...

JUSTIN: Instead of like, one speeds, now you got a ten speed,

JUSTIN: it's got a nice steel frame,

JUSTIN: ...it's comfortable to ride on,

JUSTIN: it's fairly lightweight,

JUSTIN: um,

JUSTIN: these things are just really starting to come to market, right.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: so,

JUSTIN: Frank and Eve Child,

JUSTIN: were a couple who had returned from vacation

JUSTIN: in the Netherlands,

JUSTIN: in... my mouse is not working,

JUSTIN: 1964.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and they some of the concepts of separated bike lanes

JUSTIN: demonstrated there, right, and they thought they made sense...

JUSTIN: and they--

JASON: Those were still quite new here... at the time.

JUSTIN: Oh yeah.

JASON: ...Yeah, that was like, a very new concept they were just trialing.

NOVA: All of the Dutch people were like,

NOVA: "we want to be American, we want to drive big cars like you,"

NOVA: and then these two Americans were like, "no, the opposite of that."

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: so they thought... this made sense for the city of Davis, and they...

JUSTIN: formed sort of a small group of advocates,

JUSTIN: they... presented their ideas to city council,

JUSTIN: and they blew them off, right.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: ...Davis has too many bikes as it is,

JUSTIN: separate lanes would solve nothing,

JUSTIN: anyway, accidents occur at intersections mostly,

JUSTIN: so what would separated lanes do, right.

JUSTIN: Um...

JUSTIN: And their little advocacy group,

JUSTIN: they called it the Citizen's Bicycle Safety Committee,

JUSTIN: you know, quietly but diligently sorta gathered signatures on a petition,

JUSTIN: right, they sorta...

JUSTIN: the city council is writing illogical counterarguments to...

JUSTIN: their policies, which is

JUSTIN: what city councils do.

NOVA: Yep.

JUSTIN: But mostly they sorta...

JUSTIN: built up a coalition, right,

LIAM: Mmhm.

JUSTIN: to try and get this infrastructure installed,

JUSTIN: the city council wouldn't budge,

JUSTIN: so in '66 they sponsored their own slate of city council candidates,

JUSTIN: and, it turned out that people wanted

JUSTIN: something done about the bike traffic,

JUSTIN: and, uh,

JUSTIN: they won with their slate overwhelmingly.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: Nice.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: Good for them(?).

NOVA: ...Bike republic.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: So, at this point there's no standard for bike lanes

JUSTIN: anywhere in the United States, right.

JUSTIN: Uh, in fact,

JUSTIN: depending on who you ask, they were probably explicitly illegal.

JUSTIN: Um...

LIAM: (?) they can't take a joke, Rocz.

JUSTIN: Yeah. [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: So...

JUSTIN: In Davis, they sort of experiment with several types of bicycle lane,

JUSTIN: uh, to pretty great success, um,

JUSTIN: you know... and,

JUSTIN: these prove so popular and so useful that by 1972,

JUSTIN: the whole town was connected with some form of cycling facility.

JUSTIN: Right.

JUSTIN: And they have this--

JASON: I love that they were trialing these stuff in the 1960s,

JASON: they were trying out different things, and now,

JASON: today, in the 2020s,

JASON: we still have cities trialing and trying them out

JASON: "and let's see if this works,"

JASON: and I'm like, c'mon guys.

LIAM: Ask us about Washington Avenue.

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Yeah... I was about to s--Oh my God.

JASON: It's like, all of these stuff has been done by now.

JUSTIN: They already, already figured it out.

JASON: There is like, research, studies done...

NOVA: ...Need more consultations.

JASON: [groans]

JUSTIN: ...We'll get to how that happened. Um...

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: You know, Davis, California had a very strong

JUSTIN: bike policy through like, the 70s and 80s, they have...

JUSTIN: separate bike paths, they have bike-only streets,

JUSTIN: design codes that required...

JUSTIN: greenways in any new housing development,

JUSTIN: stuff like that.

JUSTIN: Um...

JUSTIN: Through the 70s and 80s, Davis, California had a

JUSTIN: bicycle mode share of around 24%,

JASON: Damn.

JUSTIN: which was comparable or even exceeding the Netherlands at the time.

JASON: It probably was in the, in the 60s.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Mode share is...

JUSTIN: percentage of trips by any given type of transportation.

JUSTIN: Um...

JUSTIN: and you know, this is before

JUSTIN: things like cargo bikes, that made, like,

JUSTIN: trips to the grocery store very easy. Um...

JASON: We're back to grocery stores again.

JUSTIN: Yes.

NOVA: Mmhm.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: "Ask me about Weis Markets," he shouts,

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: as he's carried away from the podcast.

JASON and NOVA: [laugh]

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: now, this is a bit of a digression,

JUSTIN: but, you know, in the 90s, the engineers...

NOVA: It's a... (?)

JASON: Digression, on this podcast?

JUSTIN: My God.

JUSTIN: In the 90s, the engineers who designed and built

JUSTIN: all these excellent bike facilities started to retire.

JUSTIN: They had all been avid bike riders themselves, you know,

JUSTIN: they designed bike infrastructure they'd want to use,

JUSTIN: um, you know, the standards reflected this,

JUSTIN: but the successors were not so enthusiastic.

JUSTIN: Uh, Davis has since been sort of inconsistent

JUSTIN: with bike infrastructure.

JUSTIN: And a bunch of NIMBYs began fighting to...

JUSTIN: sever some of the bike greenways,

JUSTIN: so they don't have so see poor people,

NOVA: Of course.

JUSTIN: right, you know.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: So that...

JUSTIN: You know...

JUSTIN: Planning is fucked up in this country.

JUSTIN: But,

JUSTIN: success in Davis led to a broader movement,

JUSTIN: to standardize and formalize designs

JUSTIN: for bike infrastructure in California,

JUSTIN: and later, in the United States as a whole.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and this is gonna be important here,

JUSTIN: this is a street called Sycamore Street,

JUSTIN: which has since been redesigned

JUSTIN: with a worse bike lane configuration. Um...

JASON: It's nice.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Uh...

JUSTIN: ...This is, uh,

JUSTIN: parking-separated bike lane, right,

JUSTIN: so you got, you got the bike lane,

JUSTIN: and then there's a line of parked cars,

JUSTIN: and that... protects you from getting hit by the moving cars,

JUSTIN: right,

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Um, this is one of their original experimental designs,

JUSTIN: uh, they came up with a few,

JUSTIN: um, and they decided the best one

JUSTIN: was to have the bike lane on the other side of the parking,

JUSTIN: next to traffic,

JUSTIN: because of reasons.

LIAM: Genius level shit.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: Wow.

JUSTIN: But, um, we'll...

JUSTIN: we'll get to how that happened,

JUSTIN: I think in the next slide, or maybe the slide afterwards.

JUSTIN: But Davis' experiments, sort of,

JUSTIN: uh, spawned more interest in...

JUSTIN: how do we develop standard cycleways,

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: For California, and for,

JUSTIN: maybe the entire United States afterwards.

NOVA: Yeah, what if you just get your cycle...

NOVA: infrastructure out of the book.

NOVA: You implement it, you do it, and then you just,

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: you know, then it's done.

JUSTIN: Yeah, what if you...

JASON: That's crazy talk.

JUSTIN: what if you just had a book you could look in,

JUSTIN: to show you what the right answer was?

NOVA: Yeah, it's called the Qur'an.

[laughter]

JASON: So, it's... it's actually called a CROW manual.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: Close enough!

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Close enough, yeah.

NOVA: 'Course, you really gotta get into the hadith

NOVA: for the like, real deep shit, but, you know.

JASON: That's where all the good stuff is.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: Yeah.

JUSTIN: I don't know if there's been, uh,

JUSTIN: hadith on bicycle infrastructure.

JASON: Not to the best of my knowledge.

LIAM: ...We can head to (?) the cleric.

JUSTIN: Yeah. [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Maybe it's time.

JUSTIN: What are the standards for bicycle infrastructure in Iran?

JUSTIN: Mm.

NOVA: What are the standards of bicycle infrastructure in Mecca?

NOVA: Can I do tawwaf on a bicycle?

JUSTIN: Oh, oh, the Saudis don't want you riding a bike.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: No, the Saud--yeah, (?)

♪[Local Forecast - Elevator by Kevin MacLeod]♪

JUSTIN: Hi, it's Justin.

JUSTIN: Uh, so, this is a commercial for the podcast

JUSTIN: that you're already listening to.

JUSTIN: People are annoyed by these,

JUSTIN: so let me get to the point.

JUSTIN: We have this thing called Patreon, right.

JUSTIN: The deal is,

JUSTIN: You give us two bucks a month,

JUSTIN: and we give you an extra episode once a month.

JUSTIN: Uh, sometimes it's a little inconsistent, but,

JUSTIN: you know, it's two bucks, you get what you pay for.

JUSTIN: Um, it also gets you our full back catalog

JUSTIN: of bonus episodes,

JUSTIN: so you can learn about exciting topics

JUSTIN: like guns, pickup trucks,

JUSTIN: or pickup trucks with guns on them.

JUSTIN: The money we raise through Patreon,

JUSTIN: goes to making sure that the only ad

JUSTIN: you hear on this podcast,

JUSTIN: is this one.

JUSTIN: Anyway, that's something to consider

JUSTIN: if you have two bucks to spare each month.

JUSTIN: Uh, join at patreon.com/wtyppod.

JUSTIN: Do it if you want.

JUSTIN: Or don't, it's your decision, and we respect that.

JUSTIN: Back to the show.

JUSTIN: UCLA, University of California, Los Angeles,

LIAM: Go Bruins.

JUSTIN: was ordered by the state legislature

JUSTIN: to research bikeway construction standards,

JUSTIN: and the resulting document was called,

JUSTIN: Bikeway Planning Criteria and Guidelines.

JUSTIN: It was very ahead of its time,

JUSTIN: and it was almost completely correct.

JUSTIN: Um, I only had time to skim through it, but,

JUSTIN: you know, you can see...

JUSTIN: like, these sort of Dutch-style intersections, um,

JUSTIN: that were sorta the recommended treatments

JUSTIN: pretty much everywhere, right.

JUSTIN: Um...

JASON: And this is the US in 1972,

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: and now we still see shit all the time, where...

JASON: some traffic engineer comes up with something like this,

JASON: and then like, "look what I just invented!"

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Like, Jesus Christ, guys.

JUSTIN: No, no.

NOVA: It's something that, keeps being, like, reinvented, because...

NOVA: ...like...

NOVA: nobody ever grasped that the reason why it isn't done

NOVA: is political rather than, like...

JASON: Yes.

NOVA: infrastructural, right.

JASON: I think that is...

JUSTIN: There was a huge problem with history in...

JUSTIN: the civil engineering profession, I think.

LIAM: Yeah.

JUSTIN: No one knows what happen--

JUSTIN: people got, like, goldfish memories. Um...

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: History's not taught, uh,

JUSTIN: history's not something you're supposed to think about.

JUSTIN: You know...

JUSTIN: ...if you come up with this brand new idea that came up,

JUSTIN: was actually from 1972.

JUSTIN: ...It happens constantly.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um.

LIAM: There's never been a vacuum train. Ssshut up.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: you know, so this generally recommended protected bikeways

JUSTIN: adjacent to streets,

JUSTIN: they provide designs with extra safety intersections,

JUSTIN: they crib liberally from

JUSTIN: uh, developing design guidelines in the Netherlands,

JUSTIN: right.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: there is a further study,

JUSTIN: which we'll reference later, that was

JUSTIN: critiquing the Davis bike system,

JUSTIN: that recommended some improvements to certain areas,

JUSTIN: that they thought had been

JUSTIN: insufficiently designed, like Sycamore Street

JUSTIN: we talked about before,

JUSTIN: you know, some of the sightlines were bad,

JUSTIN: um,

JUSTIN: people parked too close to intersections,

JUSTIN: there are a little more crashes than you would expect,

JUSTIN: um,

JUSTIN: the lane was designed for one-way traffic,

JUSTIN: but actually had two-way traffic,

JASON: Mm.

JUSTIN: uh, which they thought was a problem,

JUSTIN: 'cause it was too wide, apparently,

JUSTIN: um, and also,

JUSTIN: no one cleared debris out of it.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: which, you would think, would be a problem

JUSTIN: you would solve by clearing debris out of it,

JUSTIN: rather than changing the design,

JUSTIN: but what do I know.

JUSTIN: Um...

[laughter]

JASON: Yeah...

JASON: This issue of...

JASON: the parking-protected bike lane,

JASON: like in that previous slide,

JASON: is, is actually pretty good,

JASON: but one of the issues comes up

JASON: with the sightlines, at intersections, but...

JASON: it's not that frickin' hard,

JASON: you put a curb there so that nobody can park

JASON: close to the intersection.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: Hmm.

JASON: Really not that difficult, but,

JUSTIN: ...I do... [laughs]

JASON: for some reason,

JASON: ...make this, like, out to be this...

JASON: incompatible thing; I'm like,

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: c'mon guys.

JASON: Pour some concrete.

JUSTIN: ...Intractable problem--yeah, put a curb in, it...

JUSTIN: You know... I mean a curb

JUSTIN: is a project that takes a little longer than paint,

JUSTIN: but it's not like, impossible.

JUSTIN: Uh, curbs do exist.

JUSTIN: Um...

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah, but now we've invented flexi-posts, and so...

LIAM: Oh God.

JASON: you know, curbs are obsolete.

JUSTIN: Oh, my Go--wh--you know...

JASON: [groans]

JUSTIN: they last a good,

JUSTIN: you know, two-and-a-half weeks after you install them.

JUSTIN: Um... [laughs]

LIAM: I did see something, uh,

LIAM: guerilla urbanism,

LIAM: where you should just replace flexi-posts at random,

LIAM: with a... bollard(?)

JASON: [laughs]

[crosstalk]

JUSTIN: Actual concrete.

NOVA: That's fuckin' good. I like this.

JASON: (?) That would've been great.

JUSTIN: That'd be pretty good.

LIAM: (?)

JASON: I'm sold on that, let's do it.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um.

JASON: I'll get the drill.

JUSTIN: Result of the study was the city of Davis

JUSTIN: eventually swapped the location

JUSTIN: of the parking lane and the bike lane.

JUSTIN: Rather than...

JUSTIN: trying to fix the problems. Um.

JASON: [sighs]

NOVA: Of course.

JASON: And they, they probably did it because

JASON: they needed to take away like, three parking spots.

JUSTIN: ...They took away a lot of parking

JUSTIN: for the initial system. I will say that. They, um,

JASON: Alright, fair enough.

JUSTIN: yeah, they had, they--

LIAM: And then, what did they do?

JUSTIN: Uh, well, you know, they...

JUSTIN: We'll get to that.

JASON: [laughs]

LIAM: Okay. [laughs]

JUSTIN: Now this study, it was

JUSTIN: a UCLA study.

JUSTIN: Um, the design document, I mean, was a UCLA thing,

JUSTIN: and it was not official policy of the California Department of Transportation,

JUSTIN: it was not widely accepted by... traffic engineers of the time,

JUSTIN: but, you know, it's a good start.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: In the meantime,

JUSTIN: other cities in California went ahead

JUSTIN: with their own bikeway schemes

JUSTIN: and they had varying degrees of quality.

JUSTIN: One of which was...

JUSTIN: the root of all evil in this world,

JUSTIN: Palo Alto.

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: [groans]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: My--yeah, when I...

JASON: I worked for a company that was headquartered in Palo Alto.

NOVA: Oh, which one?

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Well, (?) link, you wouldn't know it, but, uh,

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: yes, every tech company ever. Um,

JASON: I actually, I lived in the Bay Area for, for a short while. Um,

JASON: but then I also, when I was living in the UK,

JASON: I was working for a company based out of...

JASON: out of Palo Alto,

JASON: and I would have to go down there sometimes.

JASON: God dammit, I hate that place.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: So,

JUSTIN: Palo Alto has always been a rich town.

JUSTIN: Um, you know, it's like--

JASON: Except for East Palo Alto.

JUSTIN: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Is that the part, like, near the university?

JUSTIN: Wait, east, no, I'm thinking east--oh okay, I'm thinking,

JUSTIN: I'm think--I...

JASON: Anyway.

JUSTIN: I'm confu--I don't know the geography of Palo Alto.

JUSTIN: Um.

JASON: Yeah... forget Palo Alto, just, let,

JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly.

JASON: let's pretend it doesn't exist.

JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly.

JASON: Carry on.

LIAM: Happier, as a (?) person.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um, you know, it's... it's adjacent to Stanford University,

JUSTIN: has good weather, it's...

JUSTIN: flat-ish.

LIAM: You hoover blowing fucks.

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: You'd think they'd have the money to build out a high-quality

JUSTIN: bike network on the scale of Davis', but instead they...

JUSTIN: tried to cheap out, right. So,

JUSTIN: Palo Alto's "bicycle network"

JUSTIN: that's in air quotes,

JUSTIN: um, was a few painted lanes with mostly designated side paths.

JUSTIN: And most side paths were just... sidewalks.

NOVA: Mm

JUSTIN: ...They were just the existing sidewalks.

JASON: Right.

JUSTIN: Um.

LIAM: Innovative.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: And the city passed an ordinance

JUSTIN: to legally require cyclists

JUSTIN: to ride on the sidewalk instead of on the roadway.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: And that, that meant you were going pretty slow,

JUSTIN: because these are narrow, 4-foot, uh, sidewalks,

JUSTIN: Palo Alto is a town with houses with garages mostly,

JUSTIN: so there's...

JUSTIN: drivers backing out, you know...

JUSTIN: It's not, it's not an ideal circumstance for cycling, when...

JUSTIN: you're forced into a narrow sidewalk that...

JUSTIN: It has lots of changes in grade,

JUSTIN: you can't go fast, you gotta go real slow.

JUSTIN: Which, uh,

JUSTIN: piqued the attention of our guy.

NOVA: Mm.

NOVA: The subject of this episode, a mere hour in.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Hour and thirty minutes in.

JUSTIN: John Forester!

JASON: Ahhh, boo!

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: Inventor of the Subaru Forester.

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: So he's born, October 7th, 1929,

JUSTIN: his father was English novelist C.S. Forester,

JUSTIN: um...

NOVA: Not familiar.

JUSTIN: He...

NOVA: Thought I might be, but, no.

JUSTIN: [mumbles] He wrote like a, a series of uh, books about, uh...

JUSTIN: some guy in a Navy, I wanna say.

NOVA: Oww, um, The Hornblower...? [mumbles]

JUSTIN: Yes.

NOVA: Oh, okay.

JUSTIN: Also mentored Roald Dahl.

NOVA: Mmmmm.

LIAM: Roald Dahl hates the Jews.

JASON: Hated the jews.

NOVA: ...That too, yeah.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um, he took up cycling at a very early age, was one...

JUSTIN: He lived in London,

JUSTIN: uh, he, he was one of the only kids who bikes to his school.

JUSTIN: Um, he was a great fan of the British Cyclists' Touring Club,

JUSTIN: but... he's probably far too young to join

JUSTIN: because his family moved to Berkeley, California in 1940.

JUSTIN: To get away from the Blitz.

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and...

JUSTIN: he attended UC Berkeley,

JUSTIN: he, uh, studied industrial engineering,

JUSTIN: um,

JUSTIN: which is... sort of, like, layouts of factories, mostly, um...

NOVA: Preserve(?) of the utterly deranged, yes.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: I don't think they--

JUSTIN: when I went to--they didn't even offer it as a major anymore,

JUSTIN: uh, when I went to Drexel.

JUSTIN: Um... [laughs]

JASON: Mm.

JASON: They had a lot of weird engineering where I went (?)

LIAM: Purdue offers it as a grad program.

JUSTIN: Ah.

JUSTIN: So he,

JUSTIN: you know, he became an American citizen, 1951,

JUSTIN: he was an amateur bike racing guy,

JUSTIN: he was in the Navy for a bit, in Korea,

JUSTIN: um,

JUSTIN: but he eventually settled in Berkeley,

JUSTIN: you know, and this is back,

JUSTIN: this is back when Berkeley was cheap,

JUSTIN: um,

JUSTIN: and he was, um,

JUSTIN: he was still biking; he was biking on roads, in traffic,

JUSTIN: with the very small minority of people who did so at this time,

JUSTIN: who are mostly, you know,

JUSTIN: young, fit men of unlimited physical courage.

JUSTIN: Right.

LIAM: Rocz!

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: Hmm.

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Um, and he gets into, sorta the bicycle advocacy game,

JUSTIN: when there was a set of regulations on bicycle construction

JUSTIN: proposed in 1972, right.

JUSTIN: And this was...

JUSTIN: I don't remember what the, the agency was,

JUSTIN: it was the Consumer Product Safety...

JUSTIN: something-or-other.

JUSTIN: Uh...

JUSTIN: but they...

NOVA: The people who stop you, like, uh...

NOVA: throwing lawn darts into your kids' eyes, yeah.

LIAM: Yeah, the fun police.

JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly.

JUSTIN: This is, it was intended to prevent

JUSTIN: defective or unsafe children's bikes from being manufactured or sold,

JUSTIN: but,

JUSTIN: because legislators were unaware that adults rode bikes,

JUSTIN: it applied to all bikes.

[laughter]

JASON: God(?)

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Um, and that--

LIAM: ...Stupid country, man...

[laughter]

LIAM: (?) God.

JASON: Christ Almighty.

LIAM: Oh, we put a man on the moon not that long ago!

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah.

[laughter]

LIAM: Fuck, man. That's so...

[laughter]

LIAM: I hate it here.

LIAM: Go on.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: There were a lot of--

JASON: That's why I left.

JUSTIN: [laughs] There were a a lot of particulars here

JUSTIN: which I didn't fully understand,

JUSTIN: um, there were stuff about, like...

JUSTIN: the handlebars having to have a certain shape,

JUSTIN: there were stuff about

JUSTIN: reflectors that would've

JUSTIN: basically made it impossible to mount a headlight on your bike, um,

JUSTIN: you know, but...

JUSTIN: also,

JUSTIN: the pedals had to be able to fall off, for some reason,

JUSTIN: I didn't understand that.

[laughter]

JASON: That's a good idea.

LIAM: Great, safe idea.

JASON: That's always what I want when I'm cycling.

NOVA: I love, I love the government.

NOVA: So much.

LIAM: Fucking commies.

JUSTIN: And this all, this made 'em all,

JUSTIN: um, what, uh, Forester called them "toy bikes".

JUSTIN: That's uh, that's a phrase we're gonna come back to at some point. Um,

JUSTIN: now, Forester,

JUSTIN: to his credit,

JUSTIN: he took the case to a court,

JUSTIN: which didn't have jurisdiction of the regulations,

JUSTIN: and acted...

JUSTIN: acted as his own lawyer.

NOVA: "...Fool for a client."

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: And got most of the regulatory package overturned anyway.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: Huuh.

JASON: Damn. Not a bad job.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: ...I love... this country, man.

JUSTIN: ...Legal genius.

JUSTIN and LIAM: [laugh]

JUSTIN: So,

JUSTIN: and he's still very suspicious of

JUSTIN: any separated bike infrastructure, right.

JUSTIN: And I think, rightfully so, in the case of Palo Alto.

JUSTIN: And this is where he starts to embark on a campaign of stunts.

LIAM: Oh no.

NOVA: Oh, we lo--we love a campaign of stunts.

JUSTIN: Yes.

LIAM: Is this gonna be like the John 3:16 guy,

LIAM: who died in that shootout with police, or whatever?

NOVA: What??

LIAM: ...You ever see, from sports events of the 80s or 90s,

NOVA: ...No, I know, about the John 3:16 guy.

LIAM: there'd be a guy...

LIAM: Yeah, he...

NOVA: Di--di--what??

LIAM: Die--died in... either a...

LIAM: a shootout or a standoff with police.

NOVA: One of the two, I mean...

LIAM: Yeah.

NOVA: there's some overlap there.

LIAM: Yeah.

JUSTIN: So.

LIAM: Anyway.

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: This is from,

JUSTIN: this is from...

JUSTIN: the man himself, on his website,

JUSTIN: which can now only be accessed to the Wayback Machine. Um...

JUSTIN: "While"--

NOVA: You have to be a real crank to have a website at this point.

JUSTIN: Oh, my God, it was, um...

JUSTIN: So,

JUSTIN: "While cycling to work, I bumped into the early stage of this program of Palo Alto.

JUSTIN: "My route took me along(?) Middlefield Road,

JUSTIN: "the intermediate north-south route between the two major routes.

JUSTIN: "One day I saw new signs,

JUSTIN: "similar to parking regulation signs,

JUSTIN: "saying that bicycles must use the sidewalk.

JUSTIN: "I knew that English cyclists had beaten such regulations in the 30s, so I refuse.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "After some days, the police came along"--

ajc "Am I being detained?"

[laughter]

JUSTIN: ..."After some"--

LIAM: "I know my rights!"

JUSTIN: "I know my rights!"

LIAM: Also, he's, he didn't die in a standoff with the police,

LIAM: he was convicted of multiple kidnapping charges,

LIAM: following an incident in 1992,

LIAM: and is now serving 3 life sentences in Mule Creek State Prison.

LIAM: In California.

NOVA: I beg your pardon???

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: Yeah, he apparently believed the Rapture was coming

LIAM: in 6 days, and then kidnapped a maid, two guys.

NOVA: Huh?

JASON: ...What?

LIAM: Nevermind, nevermind. Go on, go on.

JASON: Okay... [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "After some days, the police came alongside...

JUSTIN: "and they instructed me nicely to use the sidewalk.

JUSTIN: "I refused, until they charged me with violating a municipal ordinance.

NOVA: [laughs]

NOVA: Ah, you can tell this was written before the adoption of tasers.

JASON: Yeah... [laughs]

LIAM: Yeah... [laughs]

JUSTIN: "When I read the ordinance,

JUSTIN: "it also required cyclists

JUSTIN: "on streets with bike lanes painted,

JUSTIN: "to turn left from the curb lane," right.

JUSTIN: Uh, so, you know...

JUSTIN: Turn left across traffic.

LIAM: That seems like suicide.

JUSTIN: "So I...

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: "I went around to find a police car,

JUSTIN: "where there was a bike lane,

JUSTIN: "and turned left from the center of the roadway.

JUSTIN: "Then I had two tickets that ordered me

JUSTIN: "to violate the standard rules of the road.

NOVA: [laughs]

NOVA: ...You just...

NOVA: I, I hate that an essential function of society,

NOVA: at like, (?) outlet valve,

NOVA: is "cranks".

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: Yes.

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: No, I, I agree with what he's doing here, actually. [laughs]

JASON: Hey,

JASON: I mean, yeah, the thing is...

JASON: This is why John Forester is actually more interesting than you'd think.

JASON: Because...

JASON: there's a lot of stuff he does, that you're kinda like,

JASON: yeah, okay dude,

JASON: like, nicely done,

JASON: yeah, that is bullshit.

JASON: So.

NOVA: Hmm.

JASON: Bravo, John.

JUSTIN: So,

JUSTIN: "there was a real trial, not a traffic court hearing.

JUSTIN: "In which I prepared diagrams

JUSTIN: "showing why movements in accordance with the standard rules of the road

JUSTIN: "were reasonably safe and within human ability.

JUSTIN: "My other diagram showed why the movements ordered by the ordinance

JUSTIN: "produced more car-bike collision conflicts

JUSTIN: "and required abilities that humans did not have,

JUSTIN: "like eyes in the back of the head.

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: We could regulate that.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: We could regulate that.

LIAM: You know, tigers have spots on the backs of their heads?

LIAM: That's...

LIAM: that's false eyes, that's one that always freaks me out,

LIAM: 'cause what the fuck,

LIAM: what the fuck is a tiger afraid of?

JUSTIN: Woow.

NOVA: Oh, I mean...

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: ...Ow, now you got me thinking about that.

NOVA: I mean, the--the false eye that always freaks me out is orca's.

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: You know.

LIAM: ...Are orcas apex predators?

NOVA: Yeah, yeah yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: But they have false eyes.

LIAM: Don't like it.

LIAM: It just scares me a lot, if that wasn't obvious. [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "I was"--

JASON: Just stay home.

JUSTIN: "I was convicted just the same,

JUSTIN: "but when the conviction was settled,

JUSTIN: "the city repealed this ordinance.

JUSTIN: "...The city council realized how it had ordered cyclists

JUSTIN: "to endanger themselves,

JUSTIN: "and did not like that liability."

JASON: Mmh.

LIAM: My dad won a case in...

LIAM: federal court doing that, once.

JUSTIN: Um...

JASON: Endangering people(?)

NOVA: So that's, that's the official, like,

NOVA: Well There's Your Problem, like, um,

NOVA: advice, is "be your own lawyer."

NOVA: It always works.

JASON: [laughs]

JASON: Everytime.

LIAM: Yeah, it always works,

LIAM: every single time.

JASON: Every time.

JUSTIN: Every single time.

JASON: ...But... he lost, right. But they did it anyway.

JUSTIN: But--yeah, he still got the ordinance (?) return.

JUSTIN: Now.

JUSTIN: "Many people"--this is the second stunt.

JUSTIN: "Many people, including cyclists,

JUSTIN: "told me that I greatly exaggerated the dangers

JUSTIN: "produced by these bikeways(?) and their law.

JUSTIN: "I finally decided to test that theory.

JUSTIN: "I rode the Middlefield sidewalk at the same speed

JUSTIN: "that I had regularly been using on the roadway."

JUSTIN: Mind(?) he's a very strong cycler,

JUSTIN: he's probably going 25 miles an hour. [laughs]

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: ...On this 4-foot sidewalk.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "I figured that with my foreknowledge of the dangers

JUSTIN: "and my bike-handling skills,

JUSTIN: "I would survive.

JUSTIN: "I was threatened by collision situations

JUSTIN: "that I figured most cyclists would not escape,"

JUSTIN: uh, "several times for a mile.

JUSTIN: "then I rode the sidewalk of Oregon,

JUSTIN: "which had 4 lanes,

JUSTIN: "at 35 miles an hour." Okay... this is a little faster than I thought.

JASON: Damn, that's fast.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs] He just look around(?) goes fucking, like,

NOVA: speed cycling at you...

[laughter]

LIAM: "I become one with the Lycra.

LIAM: "The Lycra become"--it's like Venom in Spider-Man, really.

[laughter]

NOVA: ...This man, this man has the symbiote, but it's Lycra, yeah.

JASON: I think there were some 1970s car that wouldn't have gone 35 miles per hour.

NOVA: Yeah.

JUSTIN: [laughs] Yes.

LIAM: Rocz' dad Chevy (?)

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "Intending to turn left, I looked ahead,

JUSTIN: "and there was a platoon of cars a long way away.

JUSTIN: "I looked behind, and there was another

JUSTIN: "platoon of cars a long way away.

JUSTIN: "So from the sidewalk, I turned left across the roadway.

JUSTIN: "I had missed that platoon of cars coming from behind me"--

JUSTIN: "I had missed that the platoon of cars

JUSTIN: "coming from behind me had a lead car in the number one lane,

JUSTIN: "far ahead of the others.

JUSTIN: "Now we're(?) cycling directly into its path.

NOVA: Oh, the safety car.

JUSTIN: Yeah. [laughs]

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "I was leaning for the left turn,

JUSTIN: "and could not turn right away from that car,

JUSTIN: "but I could tighten the turn,

JUSTIN: "to ride toward(?) that car,

JUSTIN: "on the lane line between the two cars."

JUSTIN: A little confused as to what's happening there.

NOVA: ...He's...

NOVA: Kobayashe Maru-ing this shit,

JUSTIN: Oh, yeah.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: He's turning into the path of the torpedo.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "The two lanes of cars pass by me on each side.

JUSTIN: "I got to the center line,

JUSTIN: "waited for the platoon to come to the other way to overtake me,

JUSTIN: "and drove to the curb,

JUSTIN: "where I sat down to think things over."

[laughter]

NOVA: "Covered in my own piss."

JASON: And he proudly, you know,

JASON: was not wearing a helmet or anything,

NOVA: No.

JASON: and he was on a... 70s racing bike,

JASON: and Jesus, that was, uh,

JASON: That's close call.

JUSTIN: "Quite clearly, these facilities and laws

JUSTIN: "were at least as dangerous as I had initially figured,

JUSTIN: "and maybe more so.

JUSTIN: "My Middlefield ride was done at normal,

JUSTIN: "road cycling speed.

JUSTIN: "The Oregon left turn, from a sidewalk down the sidewalk ramp,

JUSTIN: "was done at walking speed.

JUSTIN: "bikeway advocates have loudly criticized my Middlefield ride,

JUSTIN: "because I was cycling dangerously fast.

JUSTIN: "They don't realize that their criticism condemns their ideology.

JUSTIN: "The facility"--

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: I, I love to deploy a sentence like,

NOVA: "They don't realize that their criticism"--

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: That is brilliant.

NOVA: Like... this is, this is a fantastic Guy we've discovered here.

[laughter]

NOVA: ...Imagine him on Twitter.

JASON and JUSTIN: Oh my God.

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: He'd be fucking great on Twitter.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: No, it would all be Substack rants.

JUSTIN: "Their criticism condemns their ideology.

JUSTIN: "their facility was extremely dangerous

JUSTIN: "when used at the speed that had always been safe on the roadway."

NOVA: I'm not...

JASON: 35 miles per hour on a bike, Jesus Christ.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: I'm not sure it does condemn their ideology,

NOVA: but I do kind of respect this man.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: No... I,

JUSTIN: I mean,

JUSTIN: I agree with a lot of his criticisms,

JUSTIN: but I don't agree with his conclusions. [laughs]

NOVA: The type of shit liberals say about Marx.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN and JASON: [laugh]

JUSTIN: So, Forester wrote about his stunts,

JUSTIN: in a local cycling enthusiasts journal.

JUSTIN: A lot of people thought he was crazy,

JUSTIN: but a lot more people thought he was onto something

JUSTIN: and he started to develop a philosophy of "vehicular cycling", right.

JUSTIN: Here's some people cycling, vehicularly, right.

NOVA: ...You are the traffic.

JUSTIN: Yes.

NOVA: Act like the traffic.

NOVA: Pretend you're a car.

JASON: [sighs]

JUSTIN: The philosophy of vehicular cycling is that

JUSTIN: cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers with vehicles.

JUSTIN: Right.

JUSTIN: He publishes a book called "Effective Cycling" in 1976,

JUSTIN: which is also the title of Forester's education program,

JUSTIN: and he started at the same time with,

JUSTIN: I believe, The League of American Wheelmen.

JUSTIN: Um...

LIAM: ...Hell of a name.

NOVA: Cool name.

JUSTIN: That's a cool name.

JASON: Yeah, exactly, that is a pretty cool name.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: but yeah... cyclists are supposed to

JUSTIN: assertively use the road in exactly the way a motor vehicle would.

JUSTIN: You know, if you got a left turn lane, and it's 4 lanes over,

JUSTIN: uh,

JUSTIN: you better cut across traffic and use it, you fuckin' nerd.

JUSTIN: Um...

[laughter]

LIAM: ...actually what it says in the manual (?), crazily enough.

JUSTIN: Yeah...

NOVA: ...There is an invisible car-shaped box around your bicycle,

JUSTIN: Yes.

NOVA: and you better fucking act like it.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: Honest...

LIAM: "And then I went home and fucked your father's wife..."

[laughter]

LIAM: Jesus Christ...

JUSTIN: So, um,

JUSTIN: he had, he had some interesting concepts he put forward

JUSTIN: like the motorists' superiority phobia, right,

JUSTIN: which, uh...

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: so motorists in the motor industry--

LIAM: Guy(?) loves Words. [laughs]

NOVA: ...He loves...

NOVA: Like, you know, you know you're like,

NOVA: getting into crank territory when you try to, like,

NOVA: psychoanalyze this shit, like,

LIAM: Yep.

JUSTIN: Yes.

NOVA: oh, this guy who cut me off in traffic,

NOVA: he's not just an asshole,

NOVA: he, he's exhibiting...

LIAM: Clinically, he's an asshole.

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: Clinically, this man is exhibiting...

NOVA: a superiority phobia.

JASON: Hmm.

JUSTIN: Well, the motorists' superiority phobia is that

JUSTIN: motorists' in the motor industry are engaged in a plot...

JUSTIN: to prevent cyclists from using the roadway,

JUSTIN: by shoving them onto sidewalks, side paths, or dedicated lanes, right.

LIAM: Oh, that--

LIAM: that's, that's...

NOVA: That's like, only 70% true.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: ...Yeah, maybe, maybe 80.

JUSTIN: Yeah. [laughs]

[laughter]

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: then, there was the cyclists' inferiority phobia.

LIAM: Oww.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: I don't think you're inferior.

JUSTIN: So, most cyclists are sort of taking the lane...

NOVA: "If you don't cycle 35 miles an hour,

LIAM: They're cucks, they're cucks, yeah.

LIAM: "You're a cuck," yes.

NOVA: "straight down the middle of the lane,

NOVA: "you are a fucking pussy, and you need to get on my level."

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: Fuck you, John.

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah... I guess...

JUSTIN: ...this is, uh, the core of the philosophy of vehicular cycling, is...

LIAM: Is "everyone's a pussy but me"? [laughs]

NOVA: ..."You are bitch made, use the whole lane,

NOVA: "and go," like, "go as fast as a car."

JASON: Today we just call that "ableist".

NOVA: [laughs]

NOVA: "If your calves don't look like fucking two cantaloupes in a sack...

[laughter]

NOVA: "you have no business riding this bicycle."

JUSTIN: Core of the philosophy is "git gud". [laughs]

[laughter]

JASON: You know, I still get, I still get...

JASON: fuckers commenting on my YouTube channel

JASON: who would say things like,

JASON: "Well, if you can't handle it,

JASON: "you shouldn't be out there on a bike,"

JASON: and I'm just like,

JASON: go fuck yourself, honestly.

LIAM: No one says that about driving a car.

NOVA: Mm.

LIAM: Except for me.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: Yeah, except for you.

LIAM: Rocz, yo, I, listen,

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: ...on highways, I am...

NOVA: You become a different, worse person.

LIAM: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah...

[laughter]

LIAM: Oh, yeah, I'm just...

NOVA: Evil Liam has now taken the wheel.

[laughter]

LIAM: I abandon all morality,

LIAM: I'm just, I mow through orphanages,

LIAM: I'm playing(?) life like it's,

LIAM: like it's a Grand Theft Auto game.

JUSTIN: So...

JASON: ...You're the "strong and fearless" category, but in a car.

[laughter]

LIAM: Yeah, well, it's a two-ton metal box.

JUSTIN: So the cyclists' inferior phobia.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: "inferiority phobia", excuse me,

JUSTIN: is that most cyclists, you know, they're afraid of "taking the lane",

JUSTIN: as we now call it.

JUSTIN: Because most people's cycling education happened in childhood.

JUSTIN: And that was primarily designed to keep them from being run over, right.

JUSTIN: Um.

JASON: That's a good idea, by the way.

JASON: ...Don't get run over.

JUSTIN: Yes.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: ...Forester said, "the problem is that people have been taught

JUSTIN: "to fear cycling in a vehicular manner.

JUSTIN: "They have been... taught that obeying the traffic laws

JUSTIN: "on a bicycle will kill them."

NOVA: [stutters]

JASON: They've been taught physics.

JUSTIN: Yea--[laughs] Yeah.

NOVA: Mmhm.

LIAM: [laughs]

NOVA: ...Your problem is that you were taught how to ride a bicycle

NOVA: by someone who cared about you and didn't want you to die,

[laughter]

NOVA: instead of being put into a sort of Spartan agōgē.

LIAM: Yeah...

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: "I'm here to remind you that your life is worthless.

NOVA: Yeah... [laughs]

LIAM: "and unless you're cycling at 35 miles an hour,

LIAM: "you might as well commit seppuku."

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: To become a vehicular cyclist, you must first kill

JUSTIN: a cyclist in a bike lane.

[laughter]

LIAM: Kill the cyclist inside your head.

[laughter]

NOVA: Yeah, you earn your red Lycra.

LIAM: Uh, NUMTOTs isn't gonna like this one.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: ...There's 300 vehicular cyclists hold up at a two-lane road,

[laughter]

JUSTIN: fending off tens of thousands of Dutchmen.

LIAM: Our (?)...

LIAM: Our (?) will blot out the sun.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: "Then they shall bike in the shade!"

[laughter]

NOVA: I kinda love these guys now, they're fucking crazy.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: So, yeah, uh, vehicular cycling does tend to assume

JUSTIN: high speeds and a high degree of awareness and competency.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: Forester and the other vehicular cyclists

JUSTIN: did not ever expect cycling to become a mainstream mode of transportation,

JUSTIN: but also thought it was important to fight viciously

JUSTIN: for their right to the road, right.

JUSTIN: Because,

JUSTIN: ...they're like, "no...

JUSTIN: "there's not that many crazy people out there like us."

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Almost sorta feels like a persecution complex, y'know? [laughs]

NOVA: Mm.

LIAM: ...(?) more...

NOVA: No, but...

LIAM: Stop psychoanalyzing.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: Men is not meant to psychoanalyze.

JUSTIN: That's a good point, that's a good point.

LIAM: We will kill, we will dig up Freud's corpse and kill him.

JUSTIN: Um, this is, this is something I threw in the notes here,

JUSTIN: probably should've been later, but,

JUSTIN: in, um...

JUSTIN: ...Forester did make some allowances,

JUSTIN: uh, in his philosophy, like, separate cycling facilities, but he said,

JUSTIN: "every facility for promoting cycling should be designed

JUSTIN: "for 30 miles an hour.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "If not"--

LIAM: (?)

JASON: 30 miles per ho--

JASON: Okay... can somebody do a...

JASON: kilometers here, 'cause this miles is killing me.

JASON: What is 30 and 35 in kilometers per hour?

NOVA: 50 kilometers an hour.

JUSTIN: 50 kilometers an hour.

JASON: Jesus Christ.

JUSTIN: Yeah, I was, I was about to say,

JUSTIN: my top speed on a good day is...

JUSTIN: prolly 18? [laughs]

JUSTIN: And that's going downhill.

NOVA: I... I think we gotta, like,

NOVA: ...why aren't there guys attacking this guy

NOVA: from his own side, like, from the (?),

NOVA: why aren't there people going like,

NOVA: "oh, only 35 miles an hour?

[laughter]

NOVA: "You wanna have like, a casual bike ride?"

JASON: "You're basically standing still!"

JUSTIN and NOVA: [laugh]

JUSTIN: ..."Every facility for promoting cycling should be designed

JUSTIN: "for 30 miles an hour, if not,

JUSTIN: "it will not attract the serious cyclist,

JUSTIN: "and hence, it will not be an effective part of the transportation system.

JUSTIN: "A facility"--

JASON: So--

JASON: Sorry.

JUSTIN: "A facility that is designed only for

JUSTIN: "childlike and incompetent cyclists,

JUSTIN: "encourages the..."

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: Jesus...(?)

JUSTIN: "encourages the (?) bicycle attitude,

JUSTIN: "and discourages cycling transportation."

JASON: This guy woulda done great on Twitter.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: Oh, this guy would've executed Rocz!

LIAM: [laughs]

NOVA: ...Fuckin'...

NOVA: throwing, like, elbows and knee strikes, yeah, no, this guy...

LIAM: Yeah... (?)

LIAM: right there, on the...

LIAM: Schuylkill River Trail, just like,

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: with spears attached to his handlebars...

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: So--

LIAM: (?) Maxim gun if it fits.

JASON: Yeah, so, e-bikes in Europe are

JASON: limited, speed-limited to 25 kilometers an hour.

LIAM: Pathetic.

NOVA: Mm.

JASON: And, the average cycling--

JUSTIN: And that's why no one cycles in Europe.

JASON: [laughs] Exactly.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: That's right.

JASON: Exactly--John was right, all this time, look--

NOVA: They failed to attract the...

NOVA: the serious cyclists.

JUSTIN: [snorts]

JUSTIN: Okay, so, Forester's very opinionated.

JUSTIN: Now,

LIAM: Yeah!

JASON: Really?

JUSTIN: during the same time,

JUSTIN: we start to, um,

JUSTIN: the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials,

LIAM: Boo.

JUSTIN: starts to get interested in comprehensive

JUSTIN: bike infrastructure standards...

JUSTIN: In the United States, right.

JUSTIN: Um.

NOVA: Yeah, they got bored of being made fun of in the Cannonball Run movies,

NOVA: and they decided to, like, do this instead.

JASON: That's a nice stroad photo, by the way, I've never seen that one before,

JUSTIN: Oh yeah.

JASON: that is, that's a solid stroad, it's even got like, those,

JASON: those fake old-timey lights along the side?

NOVA: Hmmm.

JUSTIN: Hell yeah.

JUSTIN: So,

JASON: Only one side, though.

JUSTIN: ...it's actually from the Wikipedia article for stroad.

JASON: Is it?

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Um, so AASHTO is this sorta weird non-government organization

JUSTIN: which is composed of state government transportation officials.

JUSTIN: Um...

LIAM: We talked about them in traffic engineering, right.

JUSTIN: Right.

LIAM: The traffic engineering--way back.

LIAM: Episode 6 or something.

NOVA: You guys love to have, like,

NOVA: something that a federal agency

NOVA: should do, but then no one does,

NOVA: so it just turns out to be, like, a bunch of guys--

NOVA: same with fire protection, now that I think about it.

JUSTIN: Fire protection, building codes, um...

NOVA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAM: Yep.

LIAM: We'll have a commission about it, [Nova].

JUSTIN: AASHTO is at least sorta quasi-government.

JUSTIN: You know, fire protection, building codes, electrical codes...

JUSTIN: a huge amount of stuff involved with construction is,

JUSTIN: is all run by...

JUSTIN: basically private nonprofits.

JUSTIN: Composed with people who stand to make some money off the standards.

JUSTIN: Um... [laughs]

LIAM: Great.

JUSTIN: The International Building Code is very funny

JUSTIN: 'cause it's only used in the United States.

JUSTIN: Um... [laughs]

JASON: ...I do love that.

NOVA: Like the World Series.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: Yeah.

LIAM: Hey!

LIAM: The Blue Jays are a team.

LIAM: Shut up.

JUSTIN: So, yeah. AASHTO--

NOVA: Are they, though.

JUSTIN: AASHTO publishes...

LIAM: Blue Jays(?) suck, but.

JUSTIN: ...the book of standards for United States highways, that's, uh...

JUSTIN: the Green Book, uh,

JUSTIN: A Policy on Geometric--

NOVA: Oh, like the movie.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

LIAM: Exactly like the movie...

JUSTIN: Nah, this is a different green book.

LIAM: No, shut up, it's the same one.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: This is, this is A Policy on the Geometric Design of Highways and Streets,

JUSTIN: But in 1974, they released their first bicycle guide, right.

JUSTIN: And that was based on the on the recommendations of...

JUSTIN: both the, um,

JUSTIN: the study of, uh...

JUSTIN: Davis bike lanes, right.

JUSTIN: Um, and um,

JUSTIN: I think it was... there was something else, I forget what it was.

JUSTIN: Um... but it was mainly that, right,

JUSTIN: and they provided policies for separation of bicycle in motor traffic,

JUSTIN: at specific traffic densities,

JUSTIN: um, they...

JUSTIN: recommended bicycle lanes, they did not like protected bike lanes,

JUSTIN: uh, but they didn't prohibit them,

JUSTIN: um, they had things...

JUSTIN: in there, that are

JUSTIN: now considered modern infrastructure, like,

JUSTIN: offsetting lanes and intersections,

JUSTIN: you had provisions for the two-stage turn,

JUSTIN: you know, that's your bike box,

JUSTIN: at the corner of the street, right.

JUSTIN: There's a bunch of stuff that was--

JASON: The "Copenhagen Left" it's called, sometimes.

JUSTIN: Yes.

LIAM: ♪What a wad of flavor♪

JUSTIN and NOVA: [laugh]

JUSTIN: "You see it in my smile."

JUSTIN: Um...

LIAM and NOVA: [laugh]

JUSTIN: They had a bunch of stuff that was, uh,

JUSTIN: well ahead of its time.

JUSTIN: Um, and Forester was very unhappy with this.

JUSTIN: Um,

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: And he,

JUSTIN: decided to write...

JUSTIN: his own...

JUSTIN: ...bicycle transportation textbook.

JUSTIN: Um, called the Cycle Traffic Engineering Handbook,

JUSTIN: um, which is now just called Bicycle Transportation.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and it looked like a textbook,

JUSTIN: it quacked like a textbook,

JUSTIN: but it wasn't really a conventional engineering textbook, right,

JUSTIN: uh, it even says so in the introduction.

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: And so, Forester, you know, he spends a lot of his time...

JUSTIN: not so much setting up engineering... standards,

JUSTIN: as ruthlessly critiquing

JUSTIN: previous studies on protected bicycle infrastructure.

NOVA: "Ruthless critique of all that bikes".

NOVA: He is a Marxist.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: some of it's dishonest, some of it has...

JUSTIN: uh, not great intellectual rigor,

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: um, there was--

JASON: Hmm.

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: I unfortunately was not able to procure a copy of this before I, um,

JUSTIN: before we recorded this podcast,

JUSTIN: um, so I can't give a full...

JUSTIN: exposé on it.

JUSTIN: Um, there's a big focus in this textbook, though,

JUSTIN: on the safe and legal operation of bicycles,

JUSTIN: rather than, you know,

JUSTIN: engineering, right.

JUSTIN: Um, there's, there's a lot of--which really seems to be...

JUSTIN: mostly like--

NOVA: Blog posts.

JUSTIN: Really...

JUSTIN: it's like, where's the engineering part?

JUSTIN: It's like, oh, a traffic engineer should just keep doing what they're doing.

JUSTIN: And,

JUSTIN: bikes should follow the rules of the road.

JUSTIN: Um...

JASON: Goddammit, John.

JUSTIN: so... [laughs]

JUSTIN: This,

JUSTIN: this leads to a sort of information problem, right.

JUSTIN: There has been a whole bunch of studies that had been preciously conducted

JUSTIN: that were in filing cabinets with various municipalities, right.

JUSTIN: Um, but,

JUSTIN: John Forester's book,

JUSTIN: was on shelves in a store near you.

JUSTIN: So, if you were a traffic engineer,

JUSTIN: and you wanted to accommodate cyclists,

JUSTIN: but wanted to stay up-to-date on the literature,

JUSTIN: there was only one easily available and up-to-date source to turn to,

JUSTIN: which was the Cycle Traffic Engineering Handbook.

JASON: And it just happened to say,

JASON: "Hey, just do whatever you're doing, it's fine.

JUSTIN: ...It's (?)

NOVA: Just vibes, yeah.

JASON: "We're all good, all the cyclists are fine, man.

JASON: "...Go ahead, it's fine."

JUSTIN: I believe there are a couple, couple chapters farther in the book about, you know,

JUSTIN: some aspects of like, sightlines and stuff like that, right, you know, but...

JUSTIN: Again, I was not able to procure a copy of the book. Um,

JUSTIN: but your cycling advocates, meanwhile,

JUSTIN: ...they were split on the vehicular cycling issue, right.

JUSTIN: And that's at best.

JUSTIN: Um, at worst, you know, you had...

JUSTIN: a cycling community that was small and insular, right.

JUSTIN: And so, they were...

JUSTIN: generally actively hostile,

JUSTIN: to, um, bike infrastructure.

JUSTIN: You know, they sorta share the opinions of John Forester here,

JUSTIN: 'cause these are... Again, proto-Lycra guys.

JUSTIN: Um...

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: and you also had direct resistance from within the traffic engineering community.

JUSTIN: There a guy named Harold Munn who was a Caltrans highway engineer,

JUSTIN: um, and he wrote a big paper for society--the American Society of Civil Engineers,

JUSTIN: which essentially said,

JUSTIN: "eyy, it's the fuckin' 20th century, what are we doin', building bike stuff?"

JUSTIN: Right, and, um...

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: Yeah, fuck off with your penny-farthing.

JUSTIN: Yeah, and you have, uh...

JUSTIN: Highway engineers think, you know...

JUSTIN: highways are built for people who pay,

JUSTIN: you know, gas tax.

JUSTIN: They're not for cyclists.

LIAM: [groans]

JUSTIN: Right? You know, despite the fact...

JUSTIN: cycle infrastructure is basically free.

JUSTIN: Uh, even the really high-quality stuff,

JUSTIN: compared to road infrastructure... [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah, I mean,

JASON: there's these stories that you hear quite often about,

JASON: like, the history of how...

JASON: Copenhagen became so cycle-friendly, it's basically because they were broke.

JASON: And it was back--you know, it's not America,

JASON: so you can't just go borrow a whole bunch of money

JASON: to do whatever the fuck you want, anyway.

JASON: They actually had to, like,

JASON: come up with the money for stuff,

JASON: and so they started encouraging people to get on bikes because it was...

JASON: way the hell cheaper,

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: Like, literally, one-fiftieth the price,

NOVA: Jesus.

JASON: (?) bike infrastructure, so they were like,

JASON: "yeah, we're totally fucking broke,

JASON: "please ride your bike 'cause we can afford that."

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah, it's, um,

JUSTIN: it's, it's incredible how cheap these stuff is, like, I...

JUSTIN: ...your main blocks are,

JUSTIN: you know, in the United States at least, it's politics.

JUSTIN: ...That's the, the main problem,

JUSTIN: you know, you could...

JUSTIN: ...if you remove the politics problem you could...

JUSTIN: get a, a full cycle lane system in the cities size of Philadelphia

JUSTIN: for probably less than a billion dollars.

JUSTIN: Uhm...

JASON: Yeah... I saw once... years ago, that was showing, um...

JASON: these various, uh, projects--I wish I could find this again--

JASON: These various projects in, um,

JASON: the US, like, there was a turnpike in New Jersey,

JASON: and they were measuring...

JASON: the price of them,

JASON: in decades of the amount of money

JASON: Copenhagen spends on all their bicycle infrastructure,

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: and so they're like,

JASON: "this turnpike costs 35 years of Copenhagen bicycle infrastructure," and,

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: you know, "this interchange costs 15 years of Copenhagen bicycle infrastructure,"

JASON: it's ridiculous.

JUSTIN: Bizarre.

JASON: But people still--you get this all the time, too,

JASON: people in North America say,

JASON: "wah, we don't have this money... for these bike stuff,"

JASON: like, oh my God, this is gonna cost $300,000 for this bike project.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JASON: And we're like...

JASON: ...This just shows that somebody that has absolutely no concept

JASON: of how much money is spent on current infrastructure.

JUSTIN: There were people blaming the, uh,

JUSTIN: last week's Pittsburgh bridge collapse,

JUSTIN: on the mayor installing bike lanes.

LIAM: Yep.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Uh, spending all of the money on bike lanes, and I...

JUSTIN: can tell you two things:

JUSTIN: 1. Pittsburgh does not have enough bike lanes.

JUSTIN: Um, 2. the bike lanes--

NOVA: "Ah, those bike riders had it too easy for too long!"

JUSTIN: 2. The bike lanes on Pittsburgh are incredibly cheap and low-quality. Um...

JASON: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: They weren't spending very much money on them. [laughs]

JASON: Every time, uh, somebody's gone through and done the calculations,

JASON: ...I need to make a video about this someday, about basically

JASON: auditing all of this and saying, you know,

JASON: ...a lot of the infrastructure in the US and Canada

JASON: comes from property taxes, (?), local sales taxes, and so,

JASON: ..if cyclists were made to pay their own way, then it's like,

JASON: okay, tell me... when I get my refund.

JUSTIN: [laughs] Yeah.

JUSTIN: So, in 1978,

JUSTIN: Caltrans was looking to develop a new bike guide,

JUSTIN: and this would be an actual engineering standard.

JUSTIN: They wanted input from cyclists.

JUSTIN: So, they asked the California Association of Bicycle Organizations.

JUSTIN: Um, and that just happened to be headed by one John Forester.

LIAM: Oh no. [laughs]

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: I've heard of this guy!

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: So, he--

LIAM: Proto-tweeting in his proto-Lycra or whatever Venom symbiote thing.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: So, he and some of his colleagues testified to say that

JUSTIN: you know, all these stuff we've studied before,

JUSTIN: it's clearly wrong, here's all the reasons, bla bla bla.

JUSTIN: Um, so, the guide they came up with...

JUSTIN: recommended no separate facilities whatsoever,

JUSTIN: just better education of cyclists and

JUSTIN: better enforcement of the rules on the road, right.

JUSTIN: Um.

JUSTIN: And then--

JASON: At least you got right turn on the red.

JUSTIN: Yeah...

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um, and in 1981, AASHTO revised this older bicycle guide,

JUSTIN: um, and when they revised it,

JUSTIN: what really happened is they didn't know they had one before,

JUSTIN: um, and they just base--yeah...

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: ..."We found this in a filing cabinet."

JUSTIN: So... they based the new one largely on the 1978 Caltrans guide,

JUSTIN: Um, also recommending no separate bicycle facilities,

JUSTIN: um, unless,

JUSTIN: as Forester suggested,

JUSTIN: they were built to a designed speed of 30 miles an hour.

NOVA: Oh my God.

LIAM: Jesus Christ, Goddammit all! [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: So...

NOVA: He just wants to go fast,

NOVA: and he's getting older at this point,

NOVA: and he's still like, "no,

JUSTIN: No.

NOVA: I have to be able to go 30 miles an hour."

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: And... he's, um...

JUSTIN: he's, uh...

JUSTIN: whatchamacallit--this...

JUSTIN: a lot of this information came from, uh,

JUSTIN: I'm gonna list the sources in the description,

JUSTIN: 'cause... a lot of them kind of obscure,

JUSTIN: this comes from like, a...

JUSTIN: a long term comparison of various, uh,

JUSTIN: AASHTO policy guidelines and how...

JUSTIN: how they were,

JUSTIN: uh, immensely, um

JUSTIN: held back by just... this

JUSTIN: set of incidents here.

JUSTIN: But like,

JUSTIN: you know, at this point,

JUSTIN: it's in the official engineering guide, the engineers has spoken,

JUSTIN: separated bike infrastructure was bad,

JUSTIN: bike lanes were bad,

JUSTIN: vehicular cycling was good.

JUSTIN: It's science, right.

NOVA: Oh yeah, I mean...

JASON: [groans] Oh my God.

NOVA: it became part of the highway code in the UK at about this time, I think.

JUSTIN: And... you reached this period, in the 1980s, in the 1990s, where, um...

JUSTIN: vehicular cycling is seen as the only legitimate

JUSTIN: method of cycling, right.

JUSTIN: Um, AASHTO explicitly prohibits bicycle infrastructure,

JUSTIN: um, some cities try and install some bike infrastructure anyway,

JUSTIN: only on roads... which aren't state highways

JUSTIN: because they would not be allowed to install it on state highways,

JUSTIN: These are very few and far between,

JUSTIN: no one's doing research because

JUSTIN: the science was established, by a guy,

JUSTIN: uh, named John Forester, who...

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Let me, let me...

JUSTIN: One thing which should be emphasized here is that he was not

JUSTIN: a, um, practicing traffic engineer or civil engineer;

JUSTIN: he was an industrial engineer.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: He just sorta came up

JUSTIN: with his own branch of engineering

JUSTIN: uh, just sprung fully-formed from his mind.

JUSTIN: Um... [laughs]

JASON: [sighs]

JUSTIN: And we also completely ignore

JUSTIN: international examples of bicycle infrastructure

JUSTIN: because this is United States, we don't learn from

JUSTIN: international examples, ever, for anything.

JUSTIN: Um...

LIAM: Best country on earth, baby. [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: Yeah, what I also saw...

JASON: in some of the John Forester discussions

JASON: when I was reading up and reminding myself of this

JASON: before the podcast, um,

JASON: was that he also would...

JASON: cherry pick statistics from other countries like the Netherlands

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: or the UK,

JASON: and he would, he would look at, say, crash statistics,

JASON: but he, he's looking at...

JASON: he's looking at, for instance, um,

JASON: the number of cycling deaths that might happen, when,

JASON: you know,

JASON: almost the entire population, all ages, are cycling.

JASON: You know, if somebody who's like, 80 years old falls off their bike,

JASON: they could very well die from a broken hip, right.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: So, he's comparing that to the very, very small number of...

JASON: of incredibly fit twenty-something men who are cycling

JASON: in the United States, saying, "see, look,

JASON: "it's safer."

LIAM: RIP to your toddler but im built different

JUSTIN and NOVA: [laugh]

JASON: Ahh fuck.

JASON: ...And this is, this is something I still see today, all the time, when...

JASON: when people sometimes still,

JASON: still people defend this stuff,

JASON: they, they love looking at, um,

JASON: ...they love looking at statistics,

JASON: and they get the denominator wrong, right,

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: so they'll do things like, per capita,

JASON: but like,

JASON: when, when 80% of the population is cycling versus like,

JASON: .6% if the population is cycling,

JASON: you can't just divide by the number of people.

JASON: ...It's these kinda statistics that

JASON: Forester and some of these guys were using to just...

JASON: it was just nonsense, it was absolute nonsense.

JUSTIN: (?) the Netherlands does have a huge cycling hazard

JUSTIN: that we don't have in the United States.

JUSTIN: Which is getting drunk and riding your bike

JUSTIN: into the canal and drowning.

JASON: I was just gonna say.

JUSTIN and NOVA: [laugh]

JASON: Although, you know what, you know what's interesting is that, uh,

JASON: most of the people who

JASON: drowned in canals are drunk tourists here, because

JASON: one of the things the Netherlands does is

JASON: right from when you're a child,

JASON: um, when you do your swimming lessons,

JASON: you have to learn to swim in clothes.

JASON: Uh, and they do this whole thing

JASON: where they throw you into the pool with all of your clothes on

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: and even...

NOVA: Yeah, they initially started doing this as a prank.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: [laughs] Right.

JASON: And so, you can go for your A, B, and C diploma,

JASON: and when you do your C diploma as a kid,

JASON: you literally have rain boots, a rain jacket,

JASON: and they throw you in the pool,

JASON: and you gotta get out.

JASON: Um, so,

JASON: every single kid in the Netherlands,

JASON: or almost any of the kid that takes, uh, swimming lessons,

JUSTIN: Any kid that survives this test.

JASON: will learn, basically--

JASON: [laughs] They are...

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JASON: They are teaching you, yeah,

JASON: survival of the fittest here, man, like...

NOVA: Yeah... we're like(?) John Forester, we're doing Spartan shit once again.

JASON: Yeah... [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: Any kid in the Netherlands is,

JASON: is basically being trained

JASON: to get drunk and fall in a canal.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Every kid in the Netherlands has killed another kid

JUSTIN: by throwing them in the canal...

[laughter]

LIAM: The very competitive system (?)

LIAM: We think it works well for us.

NOVA: (?)

JASON: (?)

JUSTIN: It's called "population control".

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

LIAM: Leave your kids to die on the hills (?) like the Spartans did,

LIAM: it's fine.

JASON: Exactly.

NOVA: ...Malthus was Dutch, I think.

JUSTIN: Yeah. [laughs]

JUSTIN: So, uh,

JUSTIN: there's not a lot of research in the cycling...

JUSTIN: being carried out in this era, um,

JUSTIN: again, they're ignoring international examples.

JUSTIN: You know, you have this sort of, uh, era

JUSTIN: where roadways are getting much bigger, you know,

JUSTIN: people widening roads everywhere.

JUSTIN: Suburban sprawl increases to bizarre levels,

JUSTIN: you know, this is when these...

JUSTIN: You know, you're building McMansions,

JUSTIN: they're like 5,000 square feet,

JUSTIN: and they're like 40 miles from the city center,

JUSTIN: it's like, "oh you could just drive there every day! Fuck it."

LIAM: Yeah.

LIAM: No, it's, it's fine. I love to...

LIAM: always use my car for everything and never get a break from it(?).

JUSTIN: ...In 1994, there was some federal funding that trickled in to, uh,

JUSTIN: bicycle infrastructure research, right.

JUSTIN: And the Federal Highway Administration published, uh,

JUSTIN: a document called,

JUSTIN: Effects of Bicycle Accommodations on Bicycle/Motor Vehicle Safety in Traffic Operations, right.

JUSTIN: So they're trying to...

NOVA: With that famous wit for which the federal government is known.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: So they... they undertook studies to determine the effect of

JUSTIN: the very small amount of cycling infrastructure

JUSTIN: that existed in the United States at that point, right.

JUSTIN: And this, uh, document wound up concluding that there's, uh,

JUSTIN: three types of cyclists.

JUSTIN: They call them group A, B, and C.

NOVA: Aries, Capricorn, uh, and INTJ.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: So A is your confident cyclists, right.

JUSTIN: And B and C are "basic" and "child", respectively, right.

JUSTIN: And--

JASON: I'm a Basic cyclist.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah, and, group A,

JUSTIN: which all cycle guides at this point had assumed to be the default,

JUSTIN: proved to be about 5% of all cyclists, right.

JASON: That, that makes sense.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: The study recommended further study of accommodating these other users.

JUSTIN: And uh, Forester was apoplectic, right.

NOVA: Yeah, "how dare you call me a crank?"

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: "How dare you call me a 'small minority of people who wanna ride bikes'?"

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: So this policy assumes that the B, C group will continue to be

JUSTIN: the large majority for whom the entire system must be designed.

JUSTIN: In effect, the--

NOVA: "No, we can, we can strengthen,

NOVA: "we can strengthen cyclists; we can teach them to be Chads like me.

JUSTIN: We could, we could...

NOVA: "By making everything remain dangerous."

JUSTIN: "We could turn this child into a Space Marine cyclist."

[laughter]

NOVA: We throw him into the bike lane, wearing rain gear.

JASON: Exactly, wearing rain gear.

JUSTIN: "In effect, the FHWA advocates dumbing down the cycling traffic system

JUSTIN: "to suit the desires of the least competent possible users."

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: Jesus Christ, guy. [laughs]

JASON: This guy takes ableism to a whole new level, like...

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Listen.

JUSTIN: Cycling is just...

LIAM: (?) it's me, it's the Forester lane!

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: It's just for able-bodied white men in Lycra.

JUSTIN: You gotta realize that. The Dutch, they're doing it wrong.

JUSTIN: Um...

JASON: Yep. Really.

JUSTIN: This is our thing.

JUSTIN: Um, not yours.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Uh, anyway, uh,

JUSTIN: follow my Barstool Sports column.

JUSTIN: Um...

LIAM: Shut the hell up.

[laughter]

LIAM: I'm doing battle with these people for 2 days, man.

JUSTIN: So, um...

JUSTIN: Forester, uh, decides to publish a new edition

JUSTIN: of Cycling Transportation Handbook, right.

JUSTIN: Now with a, a whole set of chapters

JUSTIN: with scathing criticism of the Dutch cycle path system.

JUSTIN: Which he said was unsafe,

JUSTIN: it deterred cyclists through low speed and indirect routes,

JUSTIN: and it reduced cyclists' competence, right. Um.

JUSTIN: You know, and...

JASON: Okay John.

JUSTIN: and this was... [laughs]

JUSTIN: This was, uh...

JUSTIN: One thing, one thing about John Forester is

JUSTIN: he never visited the Netherlands.

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

LIAM: Yeah, I was gonna say.

JASON: Really? I'm so surprised.

JUSTIN: So, but he did have sort of the tide turning here.

JUSTIN: You know, there was actual research in...

JUSTIN: into cycling, how to improve it... what people actually wanted.

JUSTIN: Um, in 1999, AASHTO dropped its outright prohibition

JUSTIN: on bicycle facilities.

JUSTIN: Um, it was becoming harder and harder to ignore evidence from Europe.

JUSTIN: And the effectiveness and safety of cycle infrastructure, right.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and another thing that influenced this was the formation of NACTO, right.

JUSTIN: This is the National Association of City Transportation Officials, right.

JUSTIN: Who where sort of a group of people who are very frustrated

JUSTIN: with the AASHTO standards, which also prohibited things like...

JUSTIN: um, wide sidewalks,

JUSTIN: buslanes,

JUSTIN: transit ways,

JUSTIN: ...all these stuff was basically explicitly illegal, right.

NOVA: Yeah, and so... as Americans, all you can do is

NOVA: found a competing (?) private organization.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: ...You have... a competing,

JUSTIN: a competing quasi-government agency,

JUSTIN: with the existing one... [laughs]

JASON: [groans] Oh my God.

LIAM: [laughs]

LIAM: We're gonna have commissioner's meetings about it!

JUSTIN: Yeah, I think it'd be funny if they just started having fistfights. Um...

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: That would be tight, I do like that.

JUSTIN: So they wanted more appropriate standards for urban streets and roads

JUSTIN: because before, AASHTO had come in and say,

JUSTIN: well, this is a nice...

JUSTIN: tree line, quiet residential street. Anyway,

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: add six lanes and increase the speed limit to 60 miles an hour.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: You make it sound like the mob, there.

NOVA: "This a nice tree-lined street you got here.

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: "It'd be a shame if something would...

NOVA: "happen to it."

LIAM: Put a highway through it. [laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah. [laughs]

JASON: Run a stroad through here.

NOVA: [laughs] Yeah.

JUSTIN: So this is, uh,

JUSTIN: you know... they want to develop standards for transit ways,

JUSTIN: busways, neighborhoods, slow streets,

JUSTIN: traffic coming, and of course, bicycle lanes.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and this was sort of a, a risky move at the time.

JUSTIN: Because AASHTO says these are all highly illegal, right.

JUSTIN: Um...

JUSTIN: and what that meant--

NOVA: [Dave Courtney voice] "Highly illegal."

JUSTIN: [Dave Courtney voice] "Highly illegal."

JASON and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JUSTIN: So...

JUSTIN: ...And that meant that cities were opening themselves up to liability

JUSTIN: by adding these features.

JASON: Yep.

JUSTIN: Um, you could be sued for an accident that would occur

JUSTIN: on these nonstandard streets.

JUSTIN: Even if you could demonstrate that it was

JUSTIN: objectively safer than the standard,

JUSTIN: the nonstandard street was, uh,

JUSTIN: uh, gonna get you thrown into court, right.

JASON: It's the American way.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: And, this was, um,

JUSTIN: ...this was something that was,

JUSTIN: it was a big problem for a long time.

JUSTIN: I mean,

JUSTIN: I hate to give it to 'em,

JUSTIN: but one of the guys who was very good at

JUSTIN: breaking this, uh, sort of

JUSTIN: situation was, um,

JUSTIN: Michael Bloomberg.

JUSTIN: Uh... [laughs]

NOVA: Mm.

JASON: Mmmmh.

JUSTIN: Yeah. Um...

JUSTIN: You know, with the, the really big build-out of, um,

JUSTIN: bike infrastructure in New York city, and you know,

JUSTIN: so on and so forth.

LIAM: How much did that hurt you to say, Rocz?

JUSTIN: [laughs] Well, you know...

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: [sighs] Well, it wasn't Cuomo.

JUSTIN: Yeah, it wasn't Cuomo.

JUSTIN: You know, we've been sort of... slowly clawing our way back...

JUSTIN: to the standard set in 1972, ever since.

JUSTIN: There've been two further updates,

JUSTIN: the AASHTO bike guidelines in 2012 and 2018,

JUSTIN: um,

JUSTIN: they really softened the vehicular cycling provisions, um...

JUSTIN: and they...

JUSTIN: they will now allow

JUSTIN: a separated bike lane, a protected bike lane, they allow it.

LIAM: Woooo!

JASON: That's so nice of them.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: They don't encourage it, though.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um...

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: They have many specific policy recommendations against it.

JUSTIN: But they do allow it now.

NOVA: Thinking, once again, of the, like,

NOVA: very sort of shriveled up Wojak guy who's like, "healthcare pls",

NOVA: but he's asking for a protected bike lane.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and you have, uh,

JUSTIN: bicycling is becoming popular again, you know,

JUSTIN: it's becoming a more mainstream mode of transportation

JUSTIN: in the United States, they're...

JUSTIN: very slowly installing infrastructure everywhere, but of course, this is a...

JUSTIN: terrible time to be building infrastructure, because, uh,

JUSTIN: you just need so much goddamned public comment, my God.

JUSTIN: You know, everyone wants their parking spot, um... [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: And, as a result, the stuff that's being implemented

JUSTIN: is very fractured, very disconnected.

JUSTIN: You have traffic engineers designing these stuff

JUSTIN: who have very little cycling experience,

JUSTIN: certainly don't bike themselves.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: and, doing,

JUSTIN: getting from one place to another

JUSTIN: sort of requires doing, you know, a bunch of illegal stuff

JUSTIN: if you're on a bike.

JUSTIN: You know...

JUSTIN: if you're biking in an American city that doesn't have

JUSTIN: a fully built-out bicycle network, which is all of them,

JUSTIN: um, you know, what's...

JUSTIN: The thing you're supposed to do that's legal,

JUSTIN: the thing you're supposed to do that's implied by the lane striping,

JUSTIN: and the thing... you should do to remain safe,

JUSTIN: are three different things.

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JASON: That's absolutely true.

JASON: That's absolutely true, and it sucks (?)

NOVA: And you have, you have to make like,

NOVA: how many of those decisions per minute?

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Oh my God.

JUSTIN: Uh, it's... it's not goo--I,

JUSTIN: I think one of the,

JUSTIN: one of the criticism that Forester had

JUSTIN: about like, um,

JUSTIN: you know, these, these separated lanes

JUSTIN: being, you know, unsafe, um...

JUSTIN: 'Cause later in his life...

JUSTIN: he sort of softened on the idea of the Dutch cycleway system, right. Um...

LIAM: Incredible.

JUSTIN: But,

JUSTIN: one of the criticisms he had was that,

JUSTIN: you know, it would just confuse and disorient people and...

JUSTIN: lead them to do unsafe things,

JUSTIN: because it's not... necessarily clear

JUSTIN: what you're supposed to do,

JUSTIN: and the current fractured bike lane system

JUSTIN: does that, consistently, everywhere.

JASON: Yeah. For sure.

JUSTIN: Um...

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: ...It's something that--'cause we don't have a method of creating, like,

JUSTIN: out of thin air,

JUSTIN: or even creating a comprehensive plan,

JUSTIN: to install bike lanes, bicycle facilities throughout a city,

JUSTIN: ...you're...

JUSTIN: ...you're stuck. Um...

JASON: Yeah, so,

JASON: what the Netherlands did here, is... in the 80s, mostly,

JASON: they created a bicycle design guidelines, but what was...

JASON: really important here is that

JASON: it was done in a national level.

JASON: So it was the... these are the national standards,

JASON: and they had proper bike facilities put in.

LIAM: Yeah, we don't have those.

JASON: Yeah, no shit.

[laughter]

JASON: And...

JASON: ...and, like, the NIMBYs, it's...

JASON: it's so fucking ridiculous in the US and Canada,

JASON: that every time you wanna put in bicycle infrastructure,

JASON: you need to go through community engagement meetings,

JASON: and every retired asshole

JASON: will come out to these meetings that are held at 3PM on a Tuesday,

JUSTIN: Yep.

JASON: ...and they will complain about it, because of course,

JASON: they don't ride bicycles.

JASON: Um, but in the Netherlands, it was just a national standard, so

JASON: every single time a road was, uh,

JASON: built or rebuilt,

JASON: which, you know, happens every 25 to 35 years, for any street,

JUSTIN: Yep.

JASON: it would just get the new updates. And you see this

JASON: all throughout Amsterdam. You'll see stuff that was built

JASON: in the 90s, it'd be one standard, in the

JASON: early 2000s, to another standard, in the 2010s, to another standard,

JASON: it got better and better as time went on,

JASON: but it just got built that way by default,

JASON: so every time there was a new road resurfacing,

JASON: there were proper cycle facilities put in, and then,

JASON: you basically get it for free,

JASON: 'cause you gotta rebuild your road anyway.

JASON: So, if you rebuild it with the curb here instead of there,

JASON: it's just the same cost. Um,

JASON: and that's the way they did it here.

JASON: And you're kind of seeing this in the US, in Massachusetts, because

JASON: they actually have pretty decent bike design guidelines

JASON: that came out in, I think, 2015?

JASON: And they're doing kind of the same thing.

JASON: ...They do have

JASON: the NIMBYs, and there, there's some...

JASON: ...there's still those American issues.

JASON: But...

JASON: but in general, when streets are rebuilt,

JASON: this is the standard,

JASON: the traffic engineers, you know,

JASON: check off this, this, this, and this, and it just gets rebuilt better.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: And that's really the way it has to work.

JUSTIN: We have a wonderful situation here in Philadelphia right now,

JUSTIN: which is, um, the, uh,

JUSTIN: Washington Avenue, which is the main east-west street,

LIAM: [groans]

JUSTIN: is being repaved, and they wanna restripe it,

JUSTIN: and they went through a community engagement process...

JASON: Oh, for fuck--for fucking restriping! Jesus Christ.

LIAM: Twice!

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: ...For restriping, they were going...

LIAM: Twice, they went through it twice.

JUSTIN: Well, they were going from 5 lanes to 3 lanes, right.

JUSTIN: They went through a community engagement process,

JUSTIN: they conducted surveys for...

JUSTIN: 2 and a half years,

JUSTIN: the community was

JUSTIN: well in favor of the 3 lane option, with the 2...

JUSTIN: protected bike lanes.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: then the pandemic hit, and they decided

JUSTIN: this was a reason to do the entire community...

JUSTIN: engagement process over again.

JUSTIN: Which took another 2 and a half years.

JUSTIN: Leading to the same result,

JUSTIN: and, um,

JUSTIN: well, next week they're going to have a private meeting

JUSTIN: with some community leaders,

JUSTIN: to give them an excuse to go with the 5 lane option,

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: with no bike lanes... [laughs]

LIAM: ...Truly despicable.

JUSTIN: Yeah, just keep doing the study over again

JUSTIN: until you get the result you want.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: That sounds familiar.

JUSTIN: Yeah, so,

JUSTIN: John Forester died in 2020.

JUSTIN: Uh, late 2020, I believe.

NOVA: After a very long, fulfilling life of trying to make

LIAM: Apoplexy.

NOVA: every, every single cyclist, uh,

NOVA: live by sort of warrior's code.

JUSTIN: Yes...

JASON and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JASON: The warrior code of cycling.

JUSTIN: Yeah...

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Jesus Christ...

NOVA: Listen.

NOVA: ...It's three simple rules. Um,

NOVA: Take the lane,

NOVA: respect the Emperor as a living God,

JUSTIN: Yes.

NOVA: and expel the foreign barbarians.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JASON: Yeah.

JASON: Checks out.

JUSTIN: I don't know...

JUSTIN: ...it leaves us to, like, some questions on, uh...

JUSTIN: cycling in general, like,

JUSTIN: we did all this,

JUSTIN: you know, and you wonder how many excess deaths

JUSTIN: are a result of just not going with the...

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: the provisions that were correct in the first place?

JUSTIN: Like,

JUSTIN: you know, and you still have

JUSTIN: folks who say vehicular cycling is best,

JUSTIN: and, it's like,

JUSTIN: is this supposed to be a hobby or a means of transportation?

JASON: Well... the big issue with vehicular cycling is that...

JASON: if you, if you like in a car-infested shithole,

JASON: as I have done,

JUSTIN: Mmhm.

JASON: various times in my life,

JASON: and you're gonna ride a bicycle, then...

JASON: yeah, vehicular cycling is a good idea, like,

JASON: you can't really argue with that.

JASON: But when it becomes, like, public policy, it's fucking stupid.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: Yeah, I mean, you can't, you can't run a whole, like,

JUSTIN: uh, infrastructure policy on the concept of "git gud".

JUSTIN: Um... [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah.

NOVA: You can try, and we have, for many, many years.

JASON: Yeah, but this totally plays into the...

JASON: Canadian and American idea of the personal responsibility

JASON: and, you know, if everybody just follow the rules,

JASON: we'd all be...

JASON: You know...

JASON: this is absolutely pervasive throughout North American culture.

JUSTIN: Yeah, and... I got two graphs up here, this is...

JUSTIN: uh, pedestrian and cyclist fatality, uh, rates in...

JUSTIN: the USA,

JUSTIN: um, versus all of Europe,

JUSTIN: from 1992-2018.

JUSTIN: I'll put a link to the study in the description.

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: You'd see that, um,

JUSTIN: you know, since,

JUSTIN: since, uh, cycling has become more popular in the USA,

JUSTIN: we've actually increased our per capita, um,

JUSTIN: fatality rate,

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: um,

JUSTIN: and then, on the other side, we see cyclist fatality rate per

JUSTIN: 100 million kilometers cycled, um,

JUSTIN: and this is...

JUSTIN: uh, the first graph is 2000 to 2002, the second one's 2008 to 2010,

JUSTIN: third one's 2016 to 2018, we've also managed to increase that,

JASON: Mm.

JUSTIN: relative to where we were, um, and it's...

JUSTIN: I don't know, it's...

JUSTIN: it's bizarre, I guess this is--in the United States,

JUSTIN: I guess this is mostly because our...

JUSTIN: our road vehicles are so much more dangerous.

JUSTIN: Um...

NOVA: Mm.

JASON: Yeah, I mean, even if you look at the 1970s vehicular cycling, um,

JASON: even if it was a good idea then,

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: and it wasn't, but, even if it was a good idea,

JASON: vehicles have gotten bigger, vehicles have gotten more powerful,

JASON: smartphones and distracted driving have increased substantially,

JASON: there's a lot more traffic on the road

JASON: today than there was in the 1970s; all of these things...

JUSTIN: Yeah, but... a Tesla that's gonna lock onto you and smash into you.

LIAM: You're(?) right.

JASON: Jesus Christ...

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Like... it's just...

JASON: the situation out there on the road is night and day different

JASON: than it was in the 1970s, so even if this was a good idea,

JASON: which it wasn't,

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: it sure as hell wouldn't be a good idea today.

JUSTIN: I mean, how, how are you gonna bike through, like,

JUSTIN: a diverging diamond interchange,

JASON: I... Jesus.

JUSTIN: or like a...

NOVA: Very carefully.

JUSTIN: ...or like a,

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: a Michigan left?

JUSTIN: Like...

LIAM: (?)

JASON: You know, um,

JASON: what's interesting here about this, this second graph you have, um,

JASON: the, in the Netherlands, um,

JASON: bicycle fatalities have increased, I think it was

JASON: 2 years ago, they increased for the first time since the 1970s.

JASON: And, uh, when you dig into the data,

JASON: it's entirely due to senior citizens on e-bikes.

JUSTIN: Wow.

JASON: That is the only place that the bump came from,

JASON: but it came--because, what happened is that you get these Dutch people,

JASON: who have been cycling since they were literally 3 years old,

JASON: and they've been cycling all their life, they're very confident,

JASON: but then, as they get older, their reflexes get slower,

JASON: and they're not as good as they used to be,

JASON: they can't keep up the 35 miles per hour that they did

JASON: throughout all of their life like John Forester...

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: And now they get on these e-bikes that allowed them to go,

JASON: like, as fast as they used to,

JASON: well, maybe not quite as fast as their 35 kilometers per hour

JASON: in their John Forester days,

JASON: but... then... they get themselves in trouble, basically.

JASON: And so, it's interesting, because...

JASON: I've also seen people come along and say,

JASON: "well, you know, bicycle fatalities are increasing,"

JASON: they were... these (?) articles that

JASON: more people died on bicycles than in cars for the first time

JASON: in the Netherlands since forever ago.

JASON: Um, but yeah, it's entirely due to seniors on e-bikes.

JASON: But, it... that's interesting to me,

JASON: because that's a demographic that doesn't exist

JASON: outside of the Netherlands, basically.

JASON: Or maybe...

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: uh, Denmark. Um, that demographic,

JASON: you will not get an 80-year-old on an e-bike,

JASON: in the United States.

JUSTIN: Yeah... I mean... it's a sign that like, you know, folks are...

JUSTIN: using the system.

JUSTIN: You know... and you're starting off

JUSTIN: so much lower than everywhere else.

JASON: Yeah, it's true.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: It's kinda like, well...

JASON: That, that something like that... can influence the... overall numbers.

JUSTIN: Sometimes the statistics fluctuate. [laughs]

NOVA and JASON: [laugh]

JUSTIN: Now, now here's an interesting one.

JUSTIN: Is that, we now have a cadre of

JUSTIN: autonomous car vaporware guys, right,

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: who wanna ban non-autonomous vehicles from roadways.

JUSTIN: So,

JASON: Yeah.

JUSTIN: was, was John Forester right?

JUSTIN: To--[laughs] to campaign for cyclists' right of road?

LIAM: Jeez.

NOVA and JASON: [laugh]

NOVA: ...John Forester advancing towards an autonomous vehicle,

NOVA: at 35 miles an hour, with a drawn katana.

JUSTIN: Gigantic fuckin' claymore.

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JASON: ...I don't know, like,

JASON: I don't know what the AI of a self-driving car

JASON: would identify John Forester as, because it would be,

LIAM: "A THREAT", all caps.

JASON: it would be unlike anything it had ever seen before

NOVA: Yeah, "threat", "tier 1 threat", Yes.

JASON: It would be, like, this is clearly a military jet of some kind.

LIAM: (?)

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JASON: The only thing that matches the profile in the,

JASON: in the machine learning.

JUSTIN: Start running away.

JUSTIN: Start driving away.

NOVA: [laughs]

NOVA: ...The Tesla just backs up.

JASON and JUSTIN: Yeah. [laugh]

NOVA: Like a horse.

NOVA: Just getting startled.

JASON: Shit. [laughs]

JUSTIN: Well.

JASON: That was vehicular cycling.

JUSTIN: What did we learn?

NOVA: ...I was right to never cycle.

JUSTIN: Um.

JASON: I'm a pussy for not going 35 miles per hour.

NOVA: Mmhm, mmhm.

JUSTIN: Yeah, you need...

JUSTIN: you need to go like, like 50 miles an hour on your bike, like, uh...

JUSTIN: Do like that guy who broke the...

JUSTIN: world's first cycling record and have like, a,

JUSTIN: a train right ahead of you as a blocker,

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: and ride on a wooden pathway,

JASON: Right.

JUSTIN: inbetween the tracks and go like, 65.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: yeah.

JUSTIN: Um,

JUSTIN: alright, let's all...

JUSTIN: let's all start vehicular cycling; I'm gonna go find...

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: the densest truck route I can find tomorrow,

LIAM: Oh yeah...

JUSTIN: I'm going to thrust myself...

JUSTIN: inbetween...

JASON: Well, there's Northfield Drive in Waterloo.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: Yeah.

NOVA: ...Everybody take the lane.

JUSTIN: Yes.

JUSTIN: Take the lane, everyone.

JASON: What I--

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JASON: What I learned is I do not regret leaving.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: Alright.

JUSTIN: We have a...

JUSTIN: section on this podcast called

JUSTIN: Safety Third.

♪[guitar riff] Shake hands with danger♪

JASON: Ooh, I like this.

JUSTIN: "Greetings, Well There's Your Problem crew and possible guest.

JASON: Hi, thanks!

LIAM: Hello, Possible Guest.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "I love the show, and I especially love the marathon Titanic episode.

JUSTIN: "I've used that one specifically to get people into WTYP

JUSTIN: "since it's such a good listen on a really long drive.

JUSTIN: "Keep up the good work.

JUSTIN: "When I was fresh out of school at 22 years old,

JUSTIN: "I worked at a company that design systems for the automotive industry.

LIAM: Oh no.

JUSTIN: "Since I studied something not engineering related,

JUSTIN: "I had a lot of 'on-the-job training',"

JUSTIN: that's in air quotes,

JUSTIN: "also known as

JUSTIN: "'reading safety articles and patching a loose framework together

JUSTIN: "'to keep people safe.'

JUSTIN: "As the lab manager, this also included some (?)

JUSTIN: "involved are ISO and AEC(?)," that's...

JUSTIN: automated qualification test, right.

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: "One of the things you have to do

JUSTIN: "when you develop products for cars is test them

JUSTIN: "in a crazy range of temperatures.

JUSTIN: "We were required to conduct testing from as high as 180°F,

JUSTIN: "to as low as -50°F," which...

JUSTIN: Gee, what the fuck does Tesla do, then?

[laughter]

NOVA: Not do that?

NOVA: ...Simply not do those things...

JASON: ...It's fine.

JUSTIN: "When you--"

JUSTIN: It's designed for a range of 60 to 85°F.

JUSTIN: That's fine for all of California.

JASON: It's...

JASON: Yeah, it's designed for anything California will ever see.

JASON: 72°F and sunny.

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JUSTIN: "When you have a, for example, a camera

JUSTIN: "in the trunk of a black car on a 115°F day in Arizona,

JUSTIN: "it can easily reach over 150°F, if not more.

JUSTIN: "Similarly, in upstate New York or Canada or Russia,

JUSTIN: "where it's absolutely brick,"

JUSTIN: ...I think they...

LIAM: That means "very cold", bud(?)

JUSTIN: That means very cold, yes.

JUSTIN: "-40°F is quite easily attained.

JUSTIN: "Anyway, they tasked me with getting a previously owned

JUSTIN: "temperature test chamber working.

JUSTIN: "Getting the 240V high amperage outlet for the high temperature,"

JUSTIN: uh, "was no problem, however when it came to getting the...

JUSTIN: "cold temperature testing working,

JUSTIN: "several issues popped up.

JUSTIN: "Because the system used liquid nitrogen,

JUSTIN: "in order to do the cooling,

NOVA: Hell yes?

LIAM: Yeaah.

JUSTIN: "it required a liquid nitrogen," uh, "dee-war". [phonetically] "dewar"?

NOVA: "Doour"?

JUSTIN: "Doo-ur"? It's this thing here.

NOVA: Okay.

JASON: ...I don't know, It's not Dutch, I can't pronounce it.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: [Dutchly] "Deezur".

JUSTIN: "I was informed this came in a 1,200 pound, 230 liter," uh, "dewar," right.

JUSTIN: "The reason this is dangerous is that

JUSTIN: "nitrogen gas is a simple asphyxiate,

JUSTIN: "that displaces oxygen.

JUSTIN: "With an expansion ratio of 1:696.

JUSTIN: "So, 230 liters of liquid nitrogen

JUSTIN: "can boil off to generate 160,000 liters of gas,

JUSTIN: "enough to basically kill everyone in the office,

JUSTIN: "if not more.

LIAM: Fuck. [laughs]

NOVA: "Do not spill."

JUSTIN: "But that would never happen."

NOVA: No.

JUSTIN: Foreshadowing.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "See below for an illustration of the big thick cold boy."

JUSTIN: That's, that's right here, right.

LIAM: (?)

JUSTIN: "Now, the first problem came in the form of decisions

JUSTIN: "by the management." Wow, I never would've expected that.

JUSTIN: Um... [laughs]

JASON: ...That's new for this one, yeah.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: Hmm.

JUSTIN: "Due to the size and weight...

JUSTIN: "and occurrence of earthquakes in the part of the world I was in,

JUSTIN: "the liquid nitrogen dewar had to be braced to the wall.

JUSTIN: "We were informed by the building engineers

JUSTIN: "that this will require removing a wall,

JUSTIN: "reeling into the steel girders... that formed the skeleton of the building,

JUSTIN: "then reinstalling the drywall,

JUSTIN: "hopefully using a curtain,

JUSTIN: "to mitigate dust migration into our test lab.

JUSTIN: Now,

JUSTIN: that sounds like a job that's about, like,

JUSTIN: a weekend at worst, right. Um... [laughs]

NOVA: Mm.

JUSTIN: (?), "This would be about $17,000."

JUSTIN: "But during the meeting..."

NOVA: A bargain at any price.

JUSTIN: That's...

LIAM: Yes.

JUSTIN: ...That's probably a little more than I would think, but,

JUSTIN: probably fine...

JUSTIN: If you're doing testing, you know, you want the good stuff.

JUSTIN: "During the meeting"--

NOVA: Yeah... if you're in a sort of situation where you have

NOVA: one of these lying around, that's pocket change to you,

NOVA: it has to be.

JUSTIN: ...Yeah.

JUSTIN: Well, "during the meeting, I was told this was too expensive.

JUSTIN: "When I pointed out that $17,000 was about what a brand-new test chamber would cost,

JUSTIN: "that use electric heating and cooling,

JUSTIN: "I was also told that was too expensive.

JASON and NOVA: [laugh]

JUSTIN: "...We just run the existing chamber,

JUSTIN: "using the liquid nitrogen,

JUSTIN: "and skip the safety bracing."

JASON: You just staple it to the wall, it's fine.

JUSTIN: Yeah, just put a, put a...

NOVA: Zip ties! Zip ties.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: Zip ties, yeah.

JUSTIN: Put a ratchet strap around it.

JUSTIN: Um... [laughs]

LIAM: (?)

JUSTIN: "I objected, but at this point in my career,

JUSTIN: "I didn't have the figurative balls

JUSTIN: "to seriously put my foot down on safety.

JUSTIN: "I obtained, in writing, from the CEO,

JUSTIN: "that this step should be skipped

JUSTIN: "and sent a contemporary...

JUSTIN: "contemporaneous email to myself

JUSTIN: "noting that I had, in fact, objected."

JUSTIN: Always a good idea.

JUSTIN: You know. Uh...

LIAM: Put that shit in writing.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: Yep.

JUSTIN: "Problem two, is that this test lab really was not set up with ventilation.

JUSTIN: "Now, the problem is, that when the test chamber runs,

JUSTIN: "it circulates liquid nitrogen

JUSTIN: "into the chamber, where it converts to a gas.

JUSTIN: "Taking heat away as it boils off.

JUSTIN: "Which is very effective.

JUSTIN: "However, that gas goes out the back.

JUSTIN: "And it's supposed to go on to some kind of piping,

JUSTIN: "to carry the gas away.

JUSTIN: "In our lab, this was not possible.

JUSTIN: "So I had a fan

JUSTIN: "blow air into the corner

JUSTIN: "and mix up the nitrogen gas,

LIAM: Jesus... [laughs]

JUSTIN: "and a portable oxygen content sensor.

JUSTIN: "The windows in this building were locked

JUSTIN: "after we were on the tenth floor," right.

JUSTIN: "Now, before we go, I wanna state this is not the kind

JUSTIN: "of safety conditions and procedures...

JUSTIN: "that I wanted or would put up with now, years later.

JUSTIN: "As a new grad being pushed along by industry veterans, I thought,

JUSTIN: "Eh, you know, this is how it goes.

JUSTIN: Um, "And this is embarrassing, and you know, for anyone listening,

JUSTIN: "you should never tolerate that kind of crap.

JUSTIN: "Your gut feeling is usually correct.

NOVA: Mmhm.

JUSTIN: "The final problem that sets up our incident was that the," uh,

JUSTIN: "dewar slowly boiled off," uh,

JUSTIN: "it would generate gas inside, right."

JUSTIN: Uh, "that gas formed a pressure that actually

JUSTIN: "pushed the liquid content out into the chamber.

JUSTIN: "There were two pressure release valves installed on the chamber.

JUSTIN: Uh, "I requested on my orders that the first one,

JUSTIN: "be at 50psig," I don't know what "psig" is.

JUSTIN: Um,

NOVA: Pounds per square inch per...

JUSTIN: Um...

LIAM: Psi gauge?

JUSTIN: Psi gauge.

NOVA: Gram?

JUSTIN: Yeah, that could be it...

[sub note: it's psi gauge.]

JUSTIN: "The first one's at 50, the second one's at 85.

JUSTIN: "This would ensure it never got too much pressure.

JUSTIN: "However, on the delivery,

JUSTIN: "at the time in question, the company would brought in...

JUSTIN: "The company brought in,

JUSTIN: "delivered with an 85psi and a 300psi valve.

NOVA: It's fine.

JASON: Close enough.

JUSTIN: "I needed the dewer for test, and accepted it.

JUSTIN: "Overnight, the pressure built up well beyond 85psi,

JUSTIN: "because the valve was stuck due to the low temperature."

JUSTIN: Which...

NOVA: Mmhm.

JUSTIN: You think they would've

JUSTIN: anticipated for a liquid nitrogen container, but, uh...

JUSTIN: What do I know. Um... [laughs]

JUSTIN: "During a test, we had a field engineer.

JUSTIN: "Who we call 'Tom', even though his name is Paul..."

[laughter]

JASON: I like that.

JUSTIN: "...Was very keen to get his face as close as possible

JUSTIN: "to the chamber window during the temperature pulldown,

JUSTIN: "despite my repeated insistence that he not do that.

JUSTIN: "Since he would basically be breathing in a ton of nitrogen

JUSTIN: "and not much oxygen.

JUSTIN: "He brushed me off and continued.

JUSTIN: "Which is always a good thing to do

JUSTIN: "when the lab safety manager tells you to do something.

JUSTIN: "After about two minutes, he stood up rapidly,

JUSTIN: "began to ask a question, and immediately passed out.

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: Not ideal.

JUSTIN: "On the way down, his Rolex on his.. wrist,

NOVA: Nice.

JUSTIN: "smacked the pressure release valve,

JUSTIN: "which immediately unstuck.

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "Went to full open,

[laughter]

JUSTIN: "and began ve--"

NOVA: Yo, if he die, can I have his Rolex?

JASON: ...Fucking Rolex...

JASON: Oh my God.

JUSTIN: "...and began... venting nitrogen gas into the room

JUSTIN: "at around... 250 pounds per square inch."

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: I... I have a question,

NOVA: and I know...

NOVA: the thing is, there's no answer in the thing, but I know in my heart,

NOVA: and my question is, "what model of Rolex,"

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: and the answer that I know in my heart is, "Milgauss".

JUSTIN and LIAM: [laugh]

JASON: This is why I don't wear time bracelets.

NOVA: Everything's coming up Milgauss.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "The oxygen content alarm on the other side of the room

JUSTIN: "almost immediately (?) screaming,

JUSTIN: "showing the O2 content was about 13%,

JUSTIN: "which is well below the normal air percentage of 21%.

JUSTIN: "I immediately ordered everyone out,

JUSTIN: "and helped drag Tom into the hallway,

JUSTIN: "then went back in and attempted to

JUSTIN: "stop the valve from blasting out nitrogen.

JUSTIN: "Please note: do not do this." Uh...

NOVA: Do not do this.

JUSTIN: [laughs] Do not do this.

NOVA: [laughs] Evacuate the building and call the fire department.

JUSTIN: Don't even do that, just... wait for it to dissipate.

NOVA: ...Just walk away.

LIAM: Hit da bricks.

JUSTIN: Yeah, just walk out.

[crosstalk]

NOVA: ...Change your name, move to a continent(?) of woods in Northern Finland.

JUSTIN: Yeah... [laughs]

NOVA: [laughs] ...Get a bunch of, like, sled dogs,

JUSTIN: Yeah...

NOVA: ...just start carving shit, (?)

JUSTIN: ...Go... deliver some medicines... to some children in a remote village.

[laughter]

NOVA: Grow out, like, a really long beard so no one recognizes you, yeah.

JUSTIN: Do some, do some ice fishing and drink some vodka.

[laughter]

JASON: Cycle away at 35 miles per hour.

[laughter]

NOVA: "Cycled away from the scene at an extremely high speed..."

[laughter]

JASON: "Witnesses saw a fighter jet leaving the scene..."

[laughter]

LIAM: Let me tell you about v-toll(?)

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "That was incredibly stupid and dangerous on my part...

JUSTIN: "considering the low O2 content in the room.

JUSTIN: "Once I begin to feel slightly woozy myself,

JUSTIN: "I went to the other side of the room,

JUSTIN: "grabbed a fire extinguisher,

JUSTIN: "and bashed the window lock until the window was able to be... opened,

JUSTIN: "and ventilated the room with fresh air from outside,

JUSTIN: "using the fan.

NOVA: Hell yeah.

JUSTIN: "After about one minute, the pressure subsided

JUSTIN: "and the room air returned to normal over the next ten minutes.

JUSTIN: "I, in turn, as you'd expect from idiots,

JUSTIN: "received a scolding from my manager and from the head of HR,

JUSTIN: "for bashing the window out.

LIAM: What.

JUSTIN: "...To which I promptly laid into them

JUSTIN: "with about(?) the most anger I've ever allowed myself to show at work,

JUSTIN: "which included the sentence,

JUSTIN: "'negligent safety process and procedures

JUSTIN: "'to a level of criminal... negligence.'"

JASON: [laughs]

NOVA: Yep.

LIAM: Yep.

JUSTIN: "Considering someone could've been killed or injured worse,

JUSTIN: "by... simply passing out in the worst place

JUSTIN: "and hitting their head.

JUSTIN: Um, "Now, of course they wanted to charge me for breaking the window,

NOVA: [laughs]

JUSTIN: "at which point I told them,

JUSTIN: "that if they attempted to punish me,

JUSTIN: "I would resign immediately and report them to the state OSHA office."

LIAM: Do that (?) anyway, but.

NOVA: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

JASON: Mmh.

JUSTIN: "They backed off.

JUSTIN: "In retrospect, I should've done that anyway."

JASON: Well.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

LIAM: There you go.

LIAM: Thank you.

JUSTIN: "However, about two weeks later,

JUSTIN: "I got a job offer from a much better company that sells fruit,

JUSTIN: "and left, transferring my safety responsibility to someone who,

JUSTIN: "as far ar I know,

JUSTIN: "never made any safety improvements to that system."

JUSTIN: "I submitted a report with a lengthy list of changes,

JUSTIN: "top of which was to abandon the liquid nitrogen system altogether,

JUSTIN: "and buy an electric chamber.

JUSTIN: "And so, it continued to be used,

JUSTIN: "literally as it was that day, for years,

JUSTIN: "Down to the--my same safety presentation that still had my name on it."

NOVA: Oh my God.

JUSTIN: Wonderful.

JUSTIN: "The lesson I wanna convey here is that safety matters

JUSTIN: "and it's worth threatening or indeed resigning over.

JUSTIN: "Stand up for what you believe is right when it comes to dangerous things,

JUSTIN: "because even if someone doesn't die,

JUSTIN: "they can still be seriously injured or sue you.

JUSTIN: "Luckily, nothing like that happened in this case,

JUSTIN: "but it was (?) wake-up call to me,

JUSTIN: "and empowered me to take more of a stand on safety,

JUSTIN: "and not put up with management skimping on things that exist to protect workers.

NOVA: Hell yeah.

JUSTIN: "All the best, and keep up the great show,

JUSTIN: "Anonymous."

NOVA: Fantastic.

JASON: Nice.

JASON: That was good.

NOVA: What a good Safety Third.

JUSTIN: That was a very good Safety Third.

JASON: That was a really good one, yeah.

NOVA: Don't, don't die. Don't... don't inhale a bunch of liquid nitrogen.

JUSTIN: Well, the other thing...

NOVA: ...Gaseous nitrogen, I guess.

JUSTIN: ...What would happen if you had just, um,

JUSTIN: got gud?

NOVA and JUSTIN: [laugh]

JASON: That's true, right.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

NOVA: That's true... what if you just, like,

JASON: I think that's the thing, right.

NOVA: move through the room,

NOVA: perfectly dodging every nitrogen molecule like Matrix?

JUSTIN and LIAM: [laugh]

JASON: ...If they were all going 35 miles per hour, this wouldn't be a problem.

[laughter]

JUSTIN: Alright, that was

JUSTIN: Safety Third.

JASON: [laughs]

♪[guitar riff] Shake hands with danger♪

JUSTIN: Alright, the next episode is on the

JUSTIN: Boston Molasses Disaster,

NOVA: Yes, it is.

JUSTIN: does anybody have any commercials before we go?

NOVA: Trashfuture,

NOVA: Kill James Bond!,

NOVA: Ten Thousand Losses, uh...

LIAM and NOVA: Lions Led by Donkeys,

NOVA: uh, donoteat YouTube channel.

JUSTIN: Uh,

JUSTIN: Jason, they want more Jason, where can they find you?

JUSTIN: What do you do?

JASON: Not Just Bikes.

NOVA: Not Just Bikes.

JUSTIN: Not Just Bikes.

JASON: You can check out Not Just Bikes on YouTube, or

JASON: NJB Live if you wanna see my bicycle livestreams in the Netherlands,

JASON: but I'm Not Just Bikes on pretty much every platform.

NOVA: Hell yeah.

JUSTIN: ...Are you going at least 35 miles an hour on these livestreams?

JASON: I am not going 35 miles per hour 'cause I am a wimp.

JUSTIN: Ooh.

NOVA: [laughs]

LIAM: [laughs]

JUSTIN: [laughs]

NOVA: So if you wanna see some weak shit...

JASON: Exactly, you wanna see some handsy-ass cycling...

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: that has John Forester rolling in his grave,

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: you can come check (?)

JUSTIN: ...Rolling at a angular velocity of 35 miles an hour...

[laughter]

JASON: 35 miles per hour...

JASON: Never stop, John. Keep moving.

JUSTIN: "For every cyclist going under that speed, I go one mile an hour faster..."

[laughter]

NOVA: Who needs nuclear power, you just fuckin' use him to boil some water,

JASON: [breathes in] Oooh shit.

NOVA: just hook him up to a turbine.

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Alright.

JUSTIN: Well...

JASON: [laughs]

JUSTIN: ...That was a good-sized podcast.

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah, that was good.

NOVA: Yes it was, yes it was.

JASON: ...That was longer than I thought... it would be, but uh, hey,

JASON: that's vehicular cycling.

JUSTIN: That would be the case. I mean, if we had gone 35 miles an hour,

JUSTIN: it probably would've been shorter.

NOVA: [laughs]

JASON: Yeah, of course, it would've been, like, ten minutes long.

JASON: John Forester was there hours ago.

JUSTIN: [laughs]

JUSTIN: Alright.

JUSTIN: Well,

LIAM: Bye everybody.

JUSTIN: Bye everyone.

NOVA: [yawns] Bye.

JASON: Thanks so much.